Strength

That is such a loaded question, right? Because there’s there’s many different ways that that we can define what it is to be a man. There is the sometimes cultural aspect of what it is to be a man within culture. And there’s so many different cultures in this world that, you know the definition of what a man is or what a man is supposed to do or be, can alter. So, and that’s I can walk through that the. The growth or the way that has it has evolved. I know that from earlier years being a man was being in charge, being control have no emotions. You know, you know, don’t cry. Just make sure that you’re tough enough and, you know, make people respect you and make them respect you if necessary to be tough, to be strong and to be the provider, to be the king of the house. And you know, all of these things were very important and what it meant to be a man. In early 1900s. And and you know and and in culture sometimes still today in some cultures is still the same way that it has to be a certain way within the culture. So being a man and the understanding from what I have grown up with being a haudenosaunee of the the Confederacy of Six Nations and. It it speaks more to our responsibilities and and the responsibilities of a man in our communities is to be kind, compassionate, approachable. Strong enough to get work done. You know we we’re still expected to do some out outside work. That’s what we’re supposed to do. But coming from a matriarchal society, I don’t have to be the boss. I’m just a part of the wheel. A part of the community that has a voice that has a say and to not overstep that boundary and trying to take over somebody else’s space. So being a man can have many different things, but what we’re hoping for with White Ribbon and doing the work to end gender violence and end the patriarchal demands upon men is to have us understand our gentler side, our side of being approachable. In the traditional understanding, we have a position in our communities which is called a fire keeper. We keep. We tend to the fire of the community. If there’s a ceremony, we have a big fire there, you know. And when I say a big fire that’s part of the the the contradiction there because a big fire can harm people. And men in general have that fire within us. Like  we’re just. Ah, let’s get this done. Let’s go. You know, we hear a power tool. We all turn our heads, you know, we hear engines running and, you know, just those natural parts of being a man being male is what we have. So when we have a fire and we tend to that fire. In doing so, we make sure the fire is approachable. We make sure the fire is warm and comforting, but not dangerous enough to harm people even just by standing around it. And that’s what I have learned as being a man is to be that very comforting fire, so that. Those around me can stay warm. They can be comforted, they can have circle. They can, you know, have space that’s safe. And I think that’s why we as men are supposed to be doing is creating that space just within ourselves so that when we go to a space, the energy that we exude. Also speaks to that the idea of peace.

Ilyas

Thank you. And there’s so many pieces of that that I really want to touch on, but I want to start with the idea of that, that imagery that you used of the fire of fire being manhood. And if it gets too big, it can become harmful. And so can you talk a little bit about what those harms are? So like when that kind of fire starts to burn people, essentially.

Strength

Absolutely. And you know, I I knew this would come up when I have a story that. Touches personally for me because we live in a colonial society. Colonization is taking over. It’s doing what it’s doing, but we’re trying to get back to being who we are as as just people as human beings and losing the the cultural demands or the colonial demands. I should say I have a story. Which I call colonial dad. Because I have 5 girls, I have a wife, I have community of women around me, but when I spoke with my little girls one day I was in Colonial died mode. I am working. I have to get his done. I have to get that done. I have to get this done and you little girl need to get your shoes on. So we can go, we have appointments to get to, and I totally negated and didn’t pay any attention to my child because I was stuck in the idea of being the man, getting everything going. And let’s just get this done. And again I got stuck in that mode and when I stopped for this the third time to mention to my child. You know, get your shoes. Come on, let’s go. Let’s go. We gotta get this done, babe. And I turned around and she was crying. And she’s sitting on the floor. And I was like, what is? Why are you crying? What’s going on? And I realized at that moment that I was being colonial dad. I was not being comforting. I was not being, you know. I wasn’t being anything towards kind to my own child. And you know how it hurts the other gender genders is we become forceful. We we become that fire. That’s really way too hot now. My hot fire trying to get in line with what I needed to do harmed my child because they were in a panic. Because they didn’t want to see me upset. When I stopped and I said OK, let’s get back to this and I apologized right away and like, oh, my gosh, I’m sorry, little one. How can I make this right? Because we don’t have. I’m sorry in our in our language, there’s no such thing as. I’m sorry. And then we move on. And The thing is done. It’s how can I make this right? We have to make this right. This has to be made right. So I spoke with my little one. And her problem was she couldn’t find her shoes. And there I am being colonial dad, demanding that she gets them on and she can’t even find them. So we took the moment and we we walked around and found her shoes, you know? And that goes a big story. A big part of that story is that we, as men do that a lot outside of. You know, outside of our homes, at work, at the grocery store at, you know, wherever we are, we can have that. That gowl to us or that fire that gets too hot because we’re stuck in an idea of what we need to do, rather than reminding ourselves that we need to remain being human beings and a part of a bigger circle than the one that’s raging within us. You know, so how it harms everybody is there’s fear, there’s intimidation, and it for the first little while when I started getting these teachings, I had to go into the mirror and start looking at my face because. I needed to know how to make a smile. I needed to know how to carry a face that represented and exuded kindness and peace because my eyebrows were always curled in my, you know, and it wasn’t because I was angry. It was because it was focused, but focused and angry kind of looked the same when I was in the mirror. You know, so I had to really pay attention to how how the energy of who I am exuded outward and to be very mindful of how I’m positioning myself physically. Within the expressions upon my face, how my body actually is and the language that I used was very important and that’s how we can harm those around us, is by not being aware of ourselves.

Ilyas

Yeah, the thing that resonated with me a lot there is like the the idea that you wanted to warm your your child in this instance, like you wanted to be that fire with warmth and that got so concentrated and you got so caught up in the moment that, like, it turned into, like, the hurt. And I know that something that resonates with me too is like when I get focused on something and I want to get something done. And you I’m trying and trying and trying and then like I kind of reach a point where I become. Fiery and or too fiery. And yeah, that that I think speaks a lot to the idea of, like, how masculinity can kind of go to this extreme, but at its core, it’s it can be something that’s nurturing and warm and and positive, and hopefully we can explore that a little bit more in in this situation. But you touched on a couple terms there that I wanna talk about or kind of go a bit further into mainly the intersection of kind of patriarchy and colonialism, because I think those are words that people hear or have heard but don’t necessarily understand the full context of or in. Even the context in this situation or this, uh, this conversation.

Strength

Well, colonialism has spoke of is its root word is colon. And colon is something that digests. So colonialism is to digest other societies and to create one society which would. You know, some would say comes out as poop. Because that’s what the colon does. It creates one mass from whatever is being digested. And that’s where colonialism and patriarchal societies have a top down approach. So there has to be somebody in power in their patriarchal society. And normally it’s a man because that man has the power they have, the strong enough to intimidate. They have the strong enough to harm. And they’ve been taught not to have emotions, so harming someone is less likely to attach to the person because, well, they shouldn’t have been there anyway. So they should have just done as they were told, or they should have. It’s always an outward projection, you know, it was went 1919, 16 when women were able to. Vote in Manitoba. I believe it was or one of the planes here in Canada. And then 1918, they were given the right to be themselves to sort of say the. Is it? The right to vote across Canada was in 1918 and in 1929 they were actually considered persons. Within the structure of there. The Canadian law, you know, so when you think about how much time it was before that, where men had rule. You know, and that’s what it it boils down to patriarchal society and patriarchal understanding is male run with the idea of control power and you know absolute dominance because that’s what was necessary. And that’s what was created as being a man. And when men run this is how they do it. You know, and coming from a matriarchal society, it’s more a rounded understanding of everybody’s role and responsibility, the women because they give life because they’re the only ones able to give life. Are held in a higher esteem, not in a higher level because we’re all even in community, but they’re held in a higher esteem because. Without them, we can’t create life and with them being in a bad way the life that’s being created will have an after taste of harm and after taste of hurt and when they’re making their choices and their decisions for our communities, for our children’s, for ourselves as men. It’s probably not best to have that in their decision making, you know? So that’s how we work towards getting rid of that patriarchal standpoint and really evaluating where these laws rules policies are coming from. And how we can adjust that.

Ilyas

Yeah. And I think it wasn’t until decades after women were granted personhood. I mean, I said granted personhood, but that seems kind of a weird thing to say about, like, an actual living human being, it wasn’t until decades after that that it was actually put into law that a husband could sexually assault his wife. Cause it before that it was just like it was taken for granted that the that it couldn’t happen, which kind of brings us to the the topic of like sexual violence and gender based violence. And so as we’re talking about these types of masculinities, that kind of get too hot and kind of burn the people around them. What is that intersection with gender based violence or sexual violence?

Strength

And you’re talking from a masculinity standpoint.

Ilyas

Yeah. So essentially like what, what are the pieces of masculinity that kind of feed into these sorts of social harms and individual harms?

Strength

There’s there’s two things that I I go back to in this and one of them is the biggest, of course, is control. Once we lose control and it doesn’t necessarily just have to be in that relationship, but anywhere in our lives, when we lose control, we panic or we create something that brings that control back her. So I think it gives me that control. If as a child I lost control of what I’m allowed to eat, if I if I was starved, if my diet wasn’t enough for us. As I grow older, I have control over what I eat and I will eat whatever I want whenever I want, until I’m obese and sick because I have the control. I have that power. That’s mine, and that’s where the harm can come from. When it and that intersectionality in relationship. Is to have control rather than relationship. Because relationship is sometimes confused with ownership or the power to the power over. And it’s not in the idea of respect in those relationships. Respect and my understanding that was given to me by my elders is [Mohawk], which is I have the responsibility to help any and everything reach its fullest potential. The colonial aspect and patriarchal aspect of respect as you do as you’re damn well told. And you will respect me because I’m older than you. You will respect me because I have worked this position a lot longer than you have. You know, and maybe you didn’t do a great job at it, but you did have this position longer than me, you know? So it’s about respect and it’s about trying to reach that in relationship and how to have that respect is to have both sides equally engaged and safely engaged. So having loss of that control. And knowing that somebody else can control their own space sometimes creates that the harm that comes from from the men because it’s an in-bred thing that we’re supposed to have control. My dad’s talked about it, you know. Don’t cry. Don’t do this. Don’t do that. Be a man. Man up. You know all of those comments that come to us that we’re supposed to have and take control. You know? And then the next part of it becomes purpose. What is my purpose as a man and if we don’t understand that, then it goes right back to control. My purpose is to have control and be in control and and doing that it can create very dangerous space because they end that fire within us becomes too big. It comes too hot. It exudes itself forward and harm. And shoots from us as men towards the opposite gender, or any gender that is out there today.

Ilyas

Yeah. So I can definitely see how those two can really feed into this idea of, like, power over instead of power with because what I’m hearing about the the circle or the community or that kind of like duty to the community is like a power with. So you have like power with your community. Members, you have their responsibilities to them and together you can create something bigger than any one of you individually ever could, right? Yeah, and. I think that. With that in mind, men who have this power over mentality are actually missing out on a lot like they’re missing out on, like, not just like the genuine human relationships that are out there, but like the actual ability to create something kind of lasting and meaningful. So can you. Can you talk a little bit about the effects that this sort of masculinity? So this like purpose of having control over others kind of what are the negative effects on the man himself who holds that?

Strength

The elevation of negative action definitely comes from that, because if I’m allowed to get away with this one action, then the next action or the elevation of that action, I should be able to get away with that as well and continue and continue and continue until the courts are involved. The police are involved or none of them get involved and I just lose who I am because now I’m stuck in this whirlwind of what I have created because of my manliness. They can create that space and you know, we lose who we are. We lose our ability to go back to being kind, to being genuine, to being approachable, because now everybody sees me as this, and I better stay this or else I’m going to get chastised by the other guys. I’m not going to be able to sit with the men anymore, and they’ll think less of me so. And now we have to continue that cycle. And I have found us a lot of times that when we sit in that circle with those men and we share these stories, they they tend to throw their heads back and go. Ohh. Me too. I I wanted to get back, I wanted to be kind. I I how do we stop this? That’s, you know, because it’s a cycle that was created outside of who we are. We’ve only adopted it because it’s what we were told. That’s what we were taught. You know, so critically thinking, having our mind controlled by us rather than those around us is very important to get away from that harming behavior. But it can go into a lot of things. You can go into divorce and go into no relationship with your children, your your daughters. Might lose that relationship with you. You can go to jail. There’s also, you know, other harm from other men because you may have crossed the line. You know, just by having that extended masculinity, which has become harmful.

Ilyas

Yeah. I think when when there’s conversations like these, I I don’t often hear about the harms to the men themselves, because I think that’s something that if people were to realize that holding these ideals actually, like hurts them, that they’re actually, like holding themselves back from having, like, a. A more meaningful existence or a more connected existence, or a sense of purpose that isn’t derived from, like just tyrannical control like that’s that’s really freeing in a way. And you mentioned that you have these conversations with men and that they they talk a little bit about. Being stuck in this sort of I know the. That white Ribbon talks about the man box a lot. So can you talk about those sorts of conversations that you’ve had with men and and the idea of the man box.

Strength

Yes, yes.so the man box it was. It’s designed to bring out all of those activities. The mindset of what it means to be a man and and in everybody’s different perception. And there’s so many different levels inside og that. You know all of the things we’ve mentioned so far, the harm anger in control. I need to be the boss. I’m not allowed to cry. I’m not allowed to have emotions. All of those things are in that man box. And when we go through that, we try to see how many men can actually live up to that. You know, where do you see this going? If this is who you are and this is who you’re choosing to be, where do you see this going and when do you think this should stop. And it’s really awesome to hear the answers when they when they come forward with their answers, it’s like, well, no, I don’t really like that. When I’m hearing it like it when it’s in your head, it sounds like one thing or when you say it out loud, it’s something completely different. And you’re like, well, OK, now that I’ve said it, you know, now what do I do? And that’s where we have to make that choice as men to  one to hold ourselves accountable and. And my culture, the the warrior is not the one that knows how to fight the best. The Warrior is the one that’s able to challenge himself. And to create a better person and a more confident person rather than what it was before. So to. To get right down to it, to be in that healthy space is where we want to be. You know, it’s just hard now to challenge ourselves because what if I do this? What happens if I go home? What is my dad going to say? What are my uncle’s going to do? And you’re really ridiculed. By those around us, and how do we stand true to who we want to be? It’s a it’s a very hard, hard place sometimes because we are sometimes born into a very masculine, patriarchal lifestyle.

Ilyas

And I feel like. For some people, they feel like they may lose their status as being masculine if they do some of the things that are outside of that man box and so. Like what? What is like manhood? So like it? We’ve talked about masculinity. We’ve talked about, like, this idea of being a man. But like is, is there you you kind of said that it’s culturally bound that there’s like these ideas of kindness and that there’s these ideas of like being able to like have a positive responsibility towards your community. But when we’re talking about different kinds of of manhood, like is. Is a man just like anyone who feels like they’re a man? Like, is that is that all it takes? Do is there? Do they have to kind of ascribe to a certain type of masculinity is masculinity and manhood the same like these are? Yeah.

Strength

It’s a. It’s a very interesting question because, you know, when I I mentioned earlier, you know, we hear the power tool or an engine roaring. And that, you know, we are we we just heard because we’re men. But when I’ve said that in the company of women, they’re like what? I don’t like power tools. You know, I don’t like the sound of a good revving engine. I like the 420. I like the 350 and 305, you know? And I’m like, oh, OK. Then I have just been. Put in my place. Right. But you know, in that idea of manhood. Nowadays, with the openness to gender and the gender fluidity that we’re we’re now seeing more relevant and more in in your in your face. It’s out there now, whereas before it was hidden. It’s it’s a beautiful and freeing idea that’s come forward. To know that masculinity doesn’t just sit within men but masculinity. It is always that fire. It is always about, you know, how do I jump? How does that reach in within me? And how do I exude my strength? I got the strength that within us and that is what I feel is masculinity is not necessarily only our man trait. It’s a human trait because women have that as well. The non binary have that as well you know. So when we think of the male masculinity though. That’s where it turns into that big extreme fire, and to really be mindful of that and how it harms our not only ourselves but those around us.

Ilyas

Yeah. And I think, yeah, no, I I think that’s that’s an amazing way to capture it cause it’s a, it’s an incredibly complicated subject, right? Like it’s it’s hard to define or put any one definition. On like masculinity or manhood, cause like there’s so many different types of men and men themselves can change over time, right? Like a man can still be a man and express more traditionally like feminine traits at one point and then express more traditionally masculine traits at another point and like. He can still be himself in different situations, but not necessarily kind of with the same. Expression, if that makes sense, yeah.

Strength

Absolutely. There’s a it’s a very sliding scale when it comes to how we present and who we are as men or as male, because there’s different genetically speaking, I am male. Spiritually speaking, I am both. Because I have the balance, from what we understand, as our women traits, and we have what are considered to be man traits. You know, and to be fully, completely balanced, I need to be in touch with bot. We have because the woman has the the ability to give life, it said and and culture that they are within love and empathy and compassion. The men, because we have that fire. We are in strength. We are in assertiveness and those are our natural abilities. Just naturally given to us. When we combine both, that’s when we have our good mind. And a good mind was told to me by one of my elders that actually they asked the question, what is a good mind? And everybody came up these really great answers and he went how come nobody said it’s one that works. And a mind is definitely best when it works.

Ilyas

Mm-hmm

And when it works and when we choose to exercise what we choose and what we think to choose. It’s best to do it from the idea of being balanced between both the natural inherited gender traits of love, compassion, empathy, strength, assertiveness. And even sometimes you know that the brutality that’s needed when you’re out and you’re getting ready to fight a bear because he’s chewing on your leg. You know, you need to get real tough at that. Point no matter who you.

Ilyas

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Strength

Are, but if we have both sides of who we are. Intact. Then we become very balanced. I can be assertive in my in my decision to say no, but I can also be compassionate at the same time as saying no. You know, so to have both of those together is what creates the fully rounded man or woman to be able to do both, and that’s why we have our good minded.

Ilyas

Yeah, in, in counseling, we talk a little bit about the wise mind. So when you bridge kind of like the analytic side with the emotional side and it sounds a little similar, although I understand there’s differences. When when you’re talking about the the kind of masculine and feminine energies like and these these traits and you saying that you have the the balance of both. I know in in some Indigenous communities there’s this idea of two spirited people. Is that is that similar? Is that different?

Strength

2 Spirit has really gone through a lot of controversy in the last couple of years in the idea that we don’t have two spirits.

Ilyas

OK.

Strength

We only have one, but we have a balance of both within that one. And if you’re if the two spirited thing were to be considered in that aspect, that is what I speak of. Was  I have only one spirit. This is only me here. But within my spirit and within the energy of who I am. I also have male. And feminine traits that are that are combined so that I can be approachable. I can be kind. I can give that the tender heart to my little one and not. Of the male side interact at that time because I can be just kind and loving and you know then when it’s bedtime, time for bed. I can still be kind, compassionate, and take my child to bed. Say no, it’s bedtime. It’s time for bed. Let’s go. We get there and I sing a song to them. To comfort that, you know, so to have both sides interact at the same time and to be fully rounded within both of those I think is one of the best ways for the male masculinity to be softened and to be brought to a better place.

Ilyas

I think that’s an amazing way to look at it because I think that’s something that, like everyone, can kind of resonate with, like regardless of kind of background or. Kind of belief systems. The idea that, like you can have this compassionate side to you and also have this kind of fierce side, the courageous side, and not to say that they’re kind of dichotomous because it takes courage to be vulnerable. It takes courage to be compassionate. But to be able to have that balance of like being able to to show like ferocity in the face of like danger and also show compassion in the face of like hurt and harm. And so as we’re talking about kind of gender based violence and harms, like how can men kind of face the harms that that masculinity has created with that compassion cause I know some people feel. Feel like they’re losing out, or they feel like othered or targeted. When when these conversations are happening and I don’t think that’s anyone’s intention, I think. Like I think from what I’ve gathered from this conversation, there’s a real need to like turn towards that with compassion and kind of engage with that more kind of feminine ideal. And so can you. Can you talk about how how men can kind of face these harms with, like, with their masculinity, but also with that, that sense of, like, understanding and compassion?

Strength

Again, I think it just comes right back to being self aware. The hardest part for myself and from my teen years, where being masculine and tough and everything was the way it was supposed to be to being a father, totally shocked me from, you know, how am I supposed to be all tough and everything with with such a beautiful little child? They’re crying, you know. And and then the control comes in and we start raising our voices at a baby. And I say, you know what? How how do we work this out? And the best way to work this out is to be able to be mindful of what we’re doing, what we’ve done. And not seeing it from my own eyes, but seeing it from the eyes that have seen it. When I when I’m in a  mood and I’m walking through the house, I’m making a coffee. There’s something simple, but I’m in a mood because I’m not trying to fix my truck or the car and it’s not working. I’m I’m pissed. I come in the House and I and I closed the cupboard and my wife said, whoa, what’s wrong? I’m like nothing’s wrong. Nothing’s wrong because, well, why you slamming cupboards? I can then go into the confrontation being a man like you’re not taking this from me. I’m. I’m just doing what I’m doing. Or I go back and I reevaluate what I did. I really take a look at, you know, how did I close that door? Did I slam it? No, I didn’t slam it in the idea that I wanted to break the door off the hinges. But that’s not normally how I close the covering door. Normally I would take the handle and I would push the door closed, end of story. There’s no Big Bang, dishes aren’t rattling on the inside, but today. Yeah, I just kind of slapped the door and moved on to the next task, which was getting the spoon and I, you know, pushed the drawer closed a little bit harder than normally. Is that gender violence? Is that violence? I would have to say it is because I’ve made somebody around me uncomfortable and at any point when I make someone uncomfortable because of my action, then I have to be evaluative and what just happened and where is my part in this? How do I make this one moment in time right, because I can’t apologize for it. It’s already. Over has happened, but I can acknowledge it and then go back to the person who brings this forward and say I’m sorry. Did that bring something up? You know, how can I make this right with you? Are you OK? And listen, take the time. Be empathetic, be compassionate. Listen with curiosity. Because once I believe, I know because I’m a man. I know this stuff. I’m I’m not listening anymore. I’m just waiting for it to end. But if I can go into a better place of listening with curiosity to hear what it is that happened to them and their perception, and in their emotional space and their spiritual space and their physical space. If I can truly listen to that, that is what creates a better space. So for men to change that is to be very aware of what they’re doing and being able to hear sometimes criticism. To who we are or to our action, and to hear from their standpoint rather than in a standpoint of accusations or threatens. You know, sometimes I hear it as well, I thought you were threatening me. I thought you were, you know, coming at me because you wanted an argument. When I really sit down and think. They were just telling me because it made them uncomfortable. And they don’t. They don’t need to be uncomfortable, and they they pay their rent or they pay their mortgage the same as I do. They have a right to be safe. And if that means a right to be safe from me or from any male in the world. We as men have to start taking accountability for for who we are and what we have become because of those stereotypes or those projected expectations of what being a man really is and decide for ourselves what we are going to be as men.

Ilyas

Yeah, I think it brings it back to that idea of responsibility. Right. Like what I’ve really learned from this conversation so far is the idea that men have a responsibility to community, to themselves, to like the people around them. Because, like, with using our masculine traits or even like getting in touch with the more feminine traits. We can connect with the world in a way that makes things better. And when we’re talking about, like a healthy masculinity, I think it’s easy to get caught in the weeds. But to me, it just is talking about making things better. Like it’s can you make it better for the person you love. Can you make it better for? Like the the person who depends on you? Can it make you? Can you make it better for the person on the street who’s walking by and like maybe doesn’t feel threatened? And yeah, I think. That is a big piece of learning for me so far. And so as we’re talking about this responsibility and making things better, can you can you talk a little bit about that because I’m I’m really interested when you said. That there wasn’t a word for I’m sorry. It’s there was like it was. How do I fix this or how? Do I make this right? And that that is a very action oriented thing. That’s a very like, it’s not just like a dismissive like, I’m sorry, can we move on? It’s a like I recognize something happened and I want to make this better. Can you talk a little bit about that in this context?

Strength

Absolutely. And I’m going to use your your your statement that you just made and how can I fix this? Very male dominated sentence. Because we need to fix, we need to. I need to fix it when really we might just need to listen. We just might need to hear what what has happened and then to make it right. How how do I make this right? And and again, it’s not about how I do this. It’s a it’s a community. It’s a community, even if it’s only two people in relationship. It’s that relationship. How do we make this friend, you know, I’m willing to do what’s necessary. To make this right, but I don’t know where to walk. Can you help me? Can we have conversation, dialogue about what can happen to make this right, you know? And it’s a very simple thing. Sometimes when you think about the language that we use, like, it’s either to fix it or how are we going to make this right? You know, I I can fix it. I can just put a band-aid on it now. It’s done now go. Because I’m a guy and that’s what I do. Or we could be fully rounded in that idea of who we are and have some compassion. Have some. If you take the time to really hear and listen rather than just to say I know. And have no curiosity in what they’ve gone through. You know, I I go to work and one of the things that I’ve noticed and I’ve seen. Is there’s a woman outside at her truck or at the the at the company Van who’s got a whole bunch of boxes in the van. And I was going to go out one day and ask if they needed help. And I thought, you know, that’s a very kind thing to do, is to go out and ask if they need some help. And as I was going out there, I had to change my mind. That woman doesn’t need help. She certainly doesn’t need my help to carry a box. She’s strong enough. She’s fully capable of finding a place to put it down. She knows how to open a door. She can walk up and down stairs. You know, there’s there’s nothing that that woman cannot do. So who am I to think that I need to go out there and offer help because she needs it? So instead I changed that one word of need. Would you like some help? Would you like some help with this? I have some time. You know I’m coming here. Would you like some help with these boxes. Oh, absolutely. She. She was more than welcome. But if I had come out and asked her if she needed help. You know, she could. No, I don’t need your help. You know, I can do this just fine. But I asked in a different way and it’s very important when we’re thinking about, like, the lack of an apology rather than the effort to to make it right, we have to make the effort. We can’t just assume that everyone around us knows that I want to be a good man. I have to walk the walk. I have to change. I have to improve. I have to discard some things that I used to have. We have to go through this total inventory of what it means to be a man in my own eyes, as the individual holding that position of being a man, I have to make that choice, and in doing so I’m actually exercising part of that man. I’m. I’m in control. I am in control of who I am. And I will do the best I can to make everyone around me comfortable with me being a man. And hopefully..

Ilyas

And sorry, you know, I think that that to me really speaks of something we were talking about earlier, which is like this idea of acknowledging personhood. It’s like the the simplest thing. But they the the woman you’re trying to help her, you wanted to help was like is a person and she she’s fully capable of doing things. For herself and so like being able to come in and asking if she she wanted help as opposed to needed help. Like you’re acknowledging like she’s. She can carry a box. She can do all those things. And like you’re you’re offering support, but you’re not kind of coming in with the idea that like, I’m a man. You’re a woman. So let me do this for you because. Because you’re a woman. Yeah. Yeah. And you were talking about taking inventory and kind of. For for men to address these sorts of things in themselves, and so if you were to be talking to. To a man who wants to change, or a teenager, or a boy, or if it if there’s a difference between what you would say to each of them, like what would be 1 tip that you would give them to be able to take that sort of inventory and figure out like how they can change their own potentially unhelpful parts of masculine expression into something more, more healthy and more helpful.

Strength

I know within our communities we all have resumes. We have a resume. I have a resume, for instance a resume. When I was working with the criminal aspect of our communities and they’re trying to get away from being criminal, I was like write a resume. So like I can’t, but I’ve never worked, you know? Like I’m like, OK, well then let’s use what you have and write that resume. You know, like, if you’re, you’re good at budgeting, you never ran out of your substance. You know, if you’re conflict resolution because people never beat you up and you never got into a lot of fights, you know, there’s different ways of looking at who we are. And if we go through an idea of writing our own resume, writing out who we are. You can really see the essence of who you are to go over that inventory list of what I do, what my actions are and and the biggest part of it. And all of it is about understanding our willingness. What is my willingness to change? What is my reason for changing? You know, having that purpose in the change. Is very important to create a different space for everyone to create a different space for myself. To find a way that I can be at peace with my own actions. Because you know, if I were someone that was always violent or became violent, my spouse, my partner, girlfriend. And I justified it. That doesn’t make me feel good afterwards, and I’ve heard a lot of men say this. I never really felt good after doing it. It was just something. I did in the moment. Is to really be in that space within yourself to know yourself. And that’s not an easy thing. It’s so easy to say, but it’s not an easy thing, because when you’re in that heated moment, it’s not when you want to cool down. It’s when you want to assert assert yourself, and so in a way of going back to this, changing the idea of all of these behaviors and ideologies. One of my best suggestions would be to sit with like minded people. To find like minded people that are holding groups that are having service that are creating community space, you know and to sit with them and to examine how it is they do it, how do they? How do they walk? How do they carry themselves in those situations or in those stories, if you sit around with a bunch of men and we’re all talking about, you know, this is what I used to do to this is what I do now or, you know, I never really understood this behavior and have that dialogue with other men to carry that dialogue forward. I think that’s the one of the. Biggest and best ways to find change is to be able to find where it is. And to bring that home.

Ilyas

Yeah, I think. That that seems like such a fundamental first step. There’s a quote from a TV show that I really like where one of the characters is really like he’s he’s like accommodating and he’s able to do things and like one of the characters asks him like, how can you do this? Like, how can you change so easily? And he says once you know who you are changing for other people isn’t really that big of a deal. And I think that really speaks to what you were talking about, this idea that like if you have this core of like knowledge and understanding and just of believe in yourself then like being able to accommodate other people being able to. Accommodate other persons. Isn’t that big of a deal. It’s it’s not interacting or interfering with who you are as a man. It’s not kind of changing the status of masculinity that you hold. It’s really just like recognizing that there are other people around you who have, like, different experiences and trying not to do. Not to do harm and and I really like what you said about carrying these conversations forward and. In circles where where men are having these conversations, and hopefully this can be the start of someone’s conversation and maybe they can carry this forward to to their their social circle and kind of see if other men are interested in talking, but what what can, what can men do to bring this to their their social circles? Like is there a way that they can find a place that’s having these discussions. Is there like a way that they can bring this to the other men in their life to start having this discussion where they they can feel like they can say these things and like, admit essentially that they have compassion and feeling and all of these things that make life kind of especially meaningful and like really form a connection as opposed to kind of have that sort of harmful masculinity, fire or burn them when they try and do that.

Strength

I think we all are pretty good judgement of character when we’re in in certain space. We know the men that we’re not supposed to go and talk to about this because they’re just going to blow up. There’s going to be something that’s going to be a repercussion and at the same time. You have to wonder if that person is still fighting with their idea of being a kind person too. But they’re just not allowed to. You know what flashes into my mind are those that are born into, say, the gang life. You know, if they’re born into it and it runs in their family and they’re they’re forced to be this way. Then are you able? Are you going to be able to change that person? Or is that person able to change? Are they? Are they willing to go through that change? You know. It’s it’s. It’s a very scary conversation in some instances, like you’re leading towards stairs because we don’t want to be burned. We don’t want to be harmed by those men that that don’t believe in being kind or it’s not a part of being a man. So, you know, we don’t have to worry about it. But when you do find that person, that’s when you can have that conversation, you know, and try to formulate a question question that goes across the the realm of you know what does it mean to be a man you know, and to ask that one question alone to to any man out there. What does it mean to be a man to you? And has it changed since you first learned this? You know, those two questions can lead into one heck of a conversation because they’ll always go into the conversation. This is what I grew up as and this is what I’ve decided. You know, this is how I’m going to decide who I am and another hard part of those conversations. One of the things I would ask men to do. Is to evaluate how many times they said yeah, but they made me. You know what made you react to Sir? May be angry. Get frustrated. You know what makes you do that? Is it really them? Is it the people around you? Is it, you know, my girlfriend made me angry so. Or was it the fact that you decided that that was going to make you angry and not involve any other strategies to stay away from being angry at that moment to being into a space of curiosity or a space of kindness. You know, we make the choice regardless of what people do. We make the choice to be angry. We make the choice to react. We make the choice. That’s why the mind is in my head, not yours. You know? And I can’t give that power away to anyone, because nobody in this world can make me be angry. I either choose to be angry because of my ideology, how I was raised, the things I was taught. All of those things can be within myself. And those will make me angry because these people are not agreeing with what I already know is right. What is it? So again, back to the self evaluation. Where did I learn to be a man? How did I learn to be a man? What kind of man have I learned to be? And then evaluate and go forward from there. What parts do you wish to change? What parts do you see immediately that need changing? And again, we can have that conversation with other men.

Ilyas

Yeah, and. I think that idea of like they made me do it, this person caused me to feel this way. I feel like that’s a very kind of like rationalization of like something afterwards, like how can I explain my behavior in a way that like keeps me being OK? Or being the good, the good guy and? That that was really kind of touching to me because oftentimes we talk about Stoicism when it’s combined with, like, traditional forms of masculinity, so that that idea of, like, not showing emotions. But, what occurred to me is that, like in Stoicism, the philosophy, that’s exactly what you were saying. It’s our internal processes that make us kind of react to the world in a certain way. And so, like, if we’re if even if we’re trying to be like a a manly man and we’re we’re kind of acting in anger and we’re kind of saying these people have made me do it, we’re not even, we’re not even kind of living up to that expectation and that because this Stoicism is like. Is different than the way it’s being enacted. Yeah, and.

Strength

And anger is not an anger is not the first emotional reaction. Anger is a secondary feeling or reaction, because we’re either hurt, confused. For hurt and confused, or one or the other, we can become angry. But we’re not angry at first. We’re either hurt, somebody said something hurt my feeling or challenged my manhood, which is in turn, you know, a little bit of hurt. And then we become angry. And then we do. So to really get into that idea of what’s creating my anger when we have our traditional circles and we have, we pass the feather around one person in that circle. Will talk about their gerbil. Will talk about their cat. Will talk about their bird. Willl talk about, you know, the way the cars honk outside. And some people will get angry. OK. Because this person is taking up so much space that they become angry and what we ask people to do at that moment is to really ask yourself, why am I getting angrier? What is driving my anger, you know? Is it the threat to my manhood? Is it the threat to my masculinity? Is it a threat to me at all? Once you really start to get an understanding of that, you know just on a human being status. Can really evaluate or can really move you to a place of change.

Ilyas

Yeah. And to to bring it back to that idea of responsibility, responsibility for community. We’re responsible for our anger. We’re responsible for our reactions and actions and the effects that we have on the people around us. And so if we’re justifying kind of our anger as like maintaining our masculinity or whatever it may be, and we’re justifying the harmful effects. We’re looking at our our fire in the wrong way. We’re looking at our fire as the thing to burn as opposed to the thing to warm. And I think that’s a message that gets lost and it’s something that I’ve learned. And then I’m actually taking away from this conversation. Is that like? That that fire is there to warm, and if it’s, if it’s causing people to burn. It’s a reflection of me and that I need to kind of accommodate that for people in my life because I have a duty to warm, if that makes sense.

Strength

Yeah, absolutely. And if we’re not receptive to those things coming towards us. You know, when we see people’s faces, when we hear their reactions, their comments, when you say, oh, you’re just a or you’re like one of those people and you know, it totally negates the inward reflection that we need when it comes to change. When it comes to moving the idea of healthy masculinity forward. You know, even the the person that that personally annoys me the most I have to show compassion towards and I do that by understanding what it is about them that is annoying me. What is it? Is it really them? Or is it something within myself that says that what they’re doing is wrong or challenging my status as a person or a man?

Ilyas

Yeah, I think that’s an incredibly powerful note to end on. Just the idea that like. Taking that time to self reflect and trying to figure out that effect that you have on the community and realizing that it’s your responsibility to act and react and engage in a way that’s helpful so that you can support the people in your life so that you can show compassion so that you can like be the. Positive influence in your community that pulls everyone together and further up into. Into a better life because that is masculinity as well. And that’s like, yeah.

Strength

And you did it fairly well there with the idea of responsibility. Because responsibility as I know it is broken down differently, the colonial way of responsibility is get a job, get your education, and make your bed do your dishes before you go to bed. You know, make sure the floor is swept. You know that’s responsibility. That shows a very responsible person. And the understanding of responsibility that I have, it’s broken down differently. It’s more about our response-ability. How am I able to respond to those things around me so, and the idea of my responsibility, how am I able to respond to to every situation that I come up with? And that truly creates a responsible person, because you’re response able. And with that masculinity it’s it’s driven by that responsibility to have healthy masculinity is to be able to be assertive and to be kind in my response and the ability to respond. To have all of that put together.

Ilyas

And I am 100% certain that there are going to be men who listen to this and have a better ability to respond based off of the the wisdom that you’ve share today’s Strength. So thank you so much for for taking the time to talk with us and we really appreciate the the wisdom and knowledge that you brought to this conversation.

Strength

Great. Thank you. [Mohawk]