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Experiencing Sexual Harassment at Work? Here’s How to Obtain a Peace Bond

As specialists in sexual violence prevention and trauma-informed care, VESTA is honoured to partner with Your Way Forward‘s expert employment lawyers to bring you guidance on workplace sexual harassment in Ontario. Drawing on VESTA’s expertise in addressing gender-based violence and Your Way Forward’s deep knowledge of employment law, this series provides essential information for Ontario workers navigating workplace sexual harassment. Our hope is that this collaborative approach combining trauma-informed support with practical legal guidance will help you understand your rights and options.

For immediate assistance, contact Your Way Forward’s legal team at 1-800-850-7882.

Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

This post has been re-posted with permission. If you’d like to see the original post, click here.

Suppose you are experiencing sexual harassment at work, and have reported it to management and police to no avail. In that case, a peace bond may be what you need to ensure the person harassing you will suffer legal consequences if they continue to do so. That being said, obtaining a peace bond is not quick or easy.

What is a Peace Bond?

A peace bond is a court order made by a Justice of the Peace which “any reasonable conditions to the recognizance that the justice or court considers desirable to secure the good conduct” of the person on which it is being imposed which could be a co-worker, customer or supervisor who is sexually harassing you [i].

What Conditions Can be Imposed?

The conditions imposed are based on the situation that led to the application and can include:

·        keeping the peace and being of good behaviour;

·        not contacting the person, their spouse, or child;

·        not visiting the person, their spouse, or child;

·        not calling the person on the phone;

·        not writing letters or sending text messages;

·        not posting about the person on social media;

·        any other condition the Court considers desirable to prevent the harm[ii].

A peace bond is made based on a sworn statement made by the applicant under s.810 of the Criminal Code and is limited to 12 months in duration.

Who can apply for a Peace Bond?

You can apply for a s.810 peace bond if you “fear that another person will cause injury to you, your spouse or your child, or will damage your property, or if you reasonably fear that someone will publish, distribute or sell an intimate image of you without your consent”.[iv]

Injury in this context includes psychological harm as well as physical.

Where do you go to apply?

A peace bond application form can be obtained from your local courthouse. You can also obtain on online by going to: https://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/files/guides/guide-peace-bond-EN.pdf and clicking on the “Peace Bond Application Form” link at the top of the page.

You can submit the application in person at the courthouse in the jurisdiction where the harassment took place. Here is a link to a website where you can find addresses and contact information for courts in Ontario: https://www.ontario.ca/locations/courts.

What Happens Next?

A Justice of the Peace (JOP) will review your application. If the JOP sees merit in the Application, they will send the matter to a hearing. A hearing notice will be issued by the court and needs to be served personally on the respondent(s). For your safety and for practical reasons I recommended that you hire a process server to be certain that the notice is properly served and who can provide an affidavit of service. The affidavit of service can be filed with the court.

Often on the first day the hearing is scheduled, you are placed on a criminal court list in a scheduling court. The purpose of that first appearance is to determine whether you are ready to proceed and, if so, to set the date for the hearing. The JOP may ask the Crown to assist if there is concern about the behaviour that gave rise to the application escalating.

What Evidence Should You Gather?

Examples of evidence you can present in support of your application could include:

-police incident reports that describe any incidents that are relevant to your application.

-statements (sworn if possible) from anyone who witnessed the incidents in question;

-medical records, counselling records confirming injuries caused by actions of defendants;

It can also be of assistance to the court to prepare a brief outline for them of the facts and evidence you intend to present. The evidence you should gather depends on the specific circumstances that form the basis for your application. You can seek legal advice about this from your local Community Legal Clinic.

Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

On the Day of the Hearing

At the hearing, you will be asked to give oral testimony. The defendants will then be given a chance to ask you questions about your evidence. The defendants are also given a chance to give their evidence. Then you or the Crown will be given a chance to cross-examine them. At the end of the hearing, the parties can make submissions as to whether there was sufficient evidence to show that you have a reasonable basis to fear that the defendants will cause you personal injury, damage your property and/or share intimate images of you online. The decision is made on a “balance of probabilities” which means the JOP must determine whether it is more likely than not.

 What happens if the Peace Bond is breached?

A Peace Bond should be enforceable by the police. If there is a breach in any of the conditions you should contact the police and report it. If the police officer you initially speak to doesn’t take your call seriously consider reaching out to a community legal clinic or to Victim Services for support. We recommend that you keep a copy of the peace bond on your person at all times.

Where Can You Get More Information?

There is additional information available for you for free online regarding how to obtain a peace bond including:

Ottawa Victim Services “Peace Bond Process” https://ovs-svo.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Peace-Bond-Brochure.pdf

Canadian Resource Center for Victims of Crime “Peace Bonds” https://crcvc.ca/docs/peacebonds.pdf

Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

Written by: Anne-Marie Langan

*Anne-Marie Langan B.A., B.S.W., LL.B., LL.M. is the project lead for the sexual violence projects at Peterborough Community Legal Centre, including the SHAPE project which provides legal advice and education for those experiencing sexual harassment in the workplace and the Your Way Forward project which provides support for those who have experienced intimate partner sexual violence. These projects are sponsored by the government of Canada’s Justice Department and Legal Aid Ontario. She can be reached directly at anne-marie.langan@ptbo-nogo.clcj.ca.

[i] Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46) s.810(3.02).

[ii] Government of Canada, D. of J. (2021, July 7). Peace bonds fact sheet. Victims Right’s in Canada –. https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/victims-victimes/factsheets-fiches/peace-paix.html

[iii]  R. v. Siemens, 2012 ABPC 116 (CanLII), <https://canlii.ca/t/fr8d2>

[iv] Ontario Court of Justice. (n.d.). Guide for applying for a peace bond. Ontario Courts of Justice. https://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/files/guides/guide-peace-bond-EN.pdf at p.1.

[v] Western Law, C. L. S. (2023, August 3). Peace bond information package. Faculty of Law, Western University. https://law.uwo.ca/legal_clinics/community_legal_services/PDFs/Peace Bond Information Package for DRC – August 3, 2023.pdf


Disclaimer: This post contains general legal information as of October 21, 2024, that may or may not apply in a particular situation. It is important to note that the law, government policies and available programs can change and this blog will not be updated to reflect these changes. It is highly recommended to seek legal advice from a lawyer about your particular situation.

Parents! What You Need to Know About the Role of AI and Emerging Technologies in TFGBV

Technology is changing the way we live, work, and communicate. While it brings many benefits, it also comes with risks, especially for young people. One of the most concerning risks is Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence (TFGBV), which uses digital tools to harm others, particularly women and girls. With the rise of Artificial Intelligence (AI) and other emerging technologies, TFGBV is becoming more complex and dangerous. As a parent, it’s important to understand how these technologies are being used for harm and what you can do to protect your children.

What is Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence (TFGBV)?

TFGBV refers to any act of violence that is committed, assisted, or made worse by the use of digital technologies. This includes online harassment, cyberstalking, doxxing (sharing someone’s personal information without consent), and the non-consensual sharing of intimate images (also known as revenge porn).With the rise of AI and emerging technologies, TFGBV has become more sophisticated and harder to detect. For example, AI can be used to create fake images or videos of someone, which can then be used to harass or blackmail them. This is why it’s crucial for parents to understand how these technologies work and how they can be used for harm.

How AI and Emerging Technologies Are Used in TFGBV

1. Deepfakes and AI-Generated Abuse

2. AI-Powered Harassment and Cyberstalking

3. AI and Non-Consensual Image Sharing

4. AI and Doxxing

How Technology Can Be Part of the Solution

While AI and emerging technologies are being used to perpetrate TFGBV, they can also be part of the solution. Here are some ways technology can be used to combat TFGBV:

1. AI for Detection and Prevention

2. AI for Survivor Support

3. AI for Education and Awareness

What Parents Can Do to Protect Their Children

As a parent, you play a crucial role in keeping your children safe online. Here are some practical steps you can take to protect them from TFGBV:

1. Talk to Your Kids About Online Safety

2. Monitor Their Online Activity

3. Teach Them How to Report Abuse

4. Encourage Open Communication

5. Stay Informed About Emerging Technologies

Conclusion

AI and emerging technologies are changing the way TFGBV is perpetrated, making it more sophisticated and harder to detect. As a parent, it’s important to understand these risks and take steps to protect your children. By talking to your kids about online safety, monitoring their online activity, and staying informed about new technologies, you can help keep them safe from TFGBV.Remember, technology can also be part of the solution. AI can be used to detect and prevent TFGBV, support survivors, and educate young people about online safety. By working together, we can create a safer digital world for everyone.

Key Takeaways:

By taking these steps, you can help protect your children from the dangers of TFGBV and ensure they have a positive and safe experience online.

What are examples of TFGBV?

Common Examples of Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence (TFGBV)

Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence (TFGBV) is a growing concern, especially among young people who are active users of digital platforms. Recognizing the signs of TFGBV is crucial for protecting yourself and others. Here are some common signs to watch out for:

1. Online Harassment

2. Cyberstalking

3. Doxxing

4. Non-Consensual Sharing of Intimate Images (Revenge Porn)

5. Impersonation

6. Deepfakes and AI-Generated Abuse

7. Sextortion

8. Hate Speech and Gender Trolling

9. Swatting

10. Technology-Aggravated Sexual Assault

What You Can Do to Protect Yourself

  1. Strengthen Your Online Privacy
  2. Be Cautious with Intimate Content
  3. Recognize and Report Abuse
  4. Seek Support
  5. Educate Yourself and Others
  6. Legal Recourse

Conclusion

Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence (TFGBV) is a serious issue that can have devastating effects on victims. By recognizing the signs and taking proactive steps to protect yourself, you can reduce your risk of becoming a victim. Remember, you’re not alone—there are resources and support systems available to help you navigate these challenges. Together, we can create safer digital spaces for everyone.

Understanding Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence (TFGBV) and How to Protect Yourself

Technology has transformed the way we communicate, work, and socialize. However, it has also introduced new forms of gender-based violence (GBV) that exploit digital tools to harm individuals, particularly women and marginalized groups. Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence (TFGBV) is a growing concern, especially among young people aged 18 to 24, who are often the most active users of digital platforms. This blog post will explain what TFGBV is, its various forms, and practical steps you can take to protect yourself from it.

What is Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence (TFGBV)?

TFGBV refers to any act of violence that is committed, assisted, or amplified by the use of digital technologies. This includes online harassment, cyberstalking, doxxing (sharing personal information without consent), non-consensual sharing of intimate images, and more. TFGBV is rooted in unequal gender norms and often targets women, girls, and LGBTQI+ individuals, but it can affect anyone.

Key Forms of TFGBV

  1. Online Harassment: Repeated unwanted contact, threats, or abusive messages sent via social media, email, or messaging apps.
  2. Cyberstalking: Using technology to monitor, track, or harass someone, often through GPS tracking or spyware.
  3. Doxxing: Sharing someone’s personal information (e.g., address, phone number) online without their consent, often to incite harassment.
  4. Non-Consensual Sharing of Intimate Images (Revenge Porn): Distributing private photos or videos without the subject’s consent, often to humiliate or control them.
  5. Impersonation: Creating fake profiles or accounts to impersonate someone, often to damage their reputation or relationships.
  6. Deepfakes and AI-Generated Abuse: Using artificial intelligence to create fake images or videos of someone, often for malicious purposes.

Why is TFGBV a Concern for Young People?

Young people are particularly vulnerable to TFGBV because they are heavy users of digital platforms like social media, dating apps, and online gaming communities. These platforms can be breeding grounds for harassment, abuse, and exploitation. Additionally, young people may lack the digital literacy or awareness to recognize and respond to TFGBV effectively.

The Impact of TFGBV

TFGBV can have severe consequences, including:

How to Protect Yourself from TFGBV

While TFGBV is a serious issue, there are steps you can take to protect yourself and reduce your risk of becoming a victim. Here are some practical tips:

1. Strengthen Your Online Privacy

2. Be Cautious with Intimate Content

3. Recognize and Report Abuse

4. Seek Support

5. Educate Yourself and Others

6. Legal Recourse

The Role of Technology Companies

Technology companies have a responsibility to create safer online spaces. Here’s what they can do:

Conclusion

Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence (TFGBV) is a serious issue that affects millions of people worldwide, particularly young people. By understanding the risks and taking proactive steps to protect yourself, you can reduce your vulnerability to TFGBV. Remember, you’re not alone—there are resources and support systems available to help you navigate these challenges. Together, we can create safer digital spaces for everyone.

Key Takeaways:

By staying informed and taking action, you can help combat TFGBV and protect yourself and others from its harmful effects.

Sources:

Unacceptable: Responding to Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence

Digital Technology: A Double-Edged Sword in Technology-Facilitated Gender-Based Violence

An Infographic Guide to Technology-facilitated Gender-based Violence (TFGBV)

Workers are Protected from Harassment and Discrimination based On Gender Identity and Expression

As specialists in sexual violence prevention and trauma-informed care, VESTA is honoured to partner with Your Way Forward‘s expert employment lawyers to bring you guidance on workplace sexual harassment in Ontario. Drawing on VESTA’s expertise in addressing gender-based violence and Your Way Forward’s deep knowledge of employment law, this series provides essential information for Ontario workers navigating workplace sexual harassment. Our hope is that this collaborative approach combining trauma-informed support with practical legal guidance will help you understand your rights and options.

For immediate assistance, contact Your Way Forward’s legal team at 1-800-850-7882.

This post has been re-posted with permission. If you’d like to see the original post, click here.


Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

Every person has the right to be free from sexual harassment in the workplace. Ontario’s Human Rights Code states, ” Every employee has a right to freedom from harassment in the workplace because of sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression by his or her employer or agent of the employer or by another employee.”[I]

Likewise, for Federal workplaces, the Canadian Human Rights Act establishes that “It is a discriminatory practice, … (c) in matters related to employment, to harass an individual on a prohibited ground of discrimination”[ii] and clarifies that sexual harassment qualifies as harassment.[iii] The Act also specifies that gender identity and gender expression are prohibited grounds of discrimination.[iv]

Gender-diverse individuals were first included in the Code with the passing of Bill 33[v] and in the Act with the passing of Bill C-16.[vi] Individuals who experience sexual harassment in the workplace can bring an action before the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario or the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, depending on their place of employment. If the industry in which an individual works is federally regulated, such as airlines or banks, then the individual files an application with the CHRT. Otherwise, they file with the HRTO. A fuller list of federally regulated industries and workplaces can be found here. To learn more about workplace sexual harassment before the HRTO, see my previous post here.

The question becomes, then, what constitutes sexual harassment towards gender-diverse individuals? Does it differ from sexual harassment towards cisgender individuals? Are there aspects of sexual harassment that affect gender-diverse individuals more frequently than cisgender individuals? While sexual touching, commentary, and solicitation are frequent forms of harassment for both gender-diverse and cisgender individuals, misgendering and deadnaming are far less likely to be directed at cisgender individuals. These actions are sexual harassment and are demeaning to an individual’s dignity. They have no place in the workplace.

In Bilac v. Abbey, Currie and NC Tractor Services Inc., 2023 CHRT 43, the CHRT found an employee of a trucking company and their employer discriminated against their co-worker/employee, Mr. Bilac, by misgendering and deadnaming him, engaging in transphobic comments, and even asking him which bathroom he used (despite there being only one washroom in the workplace).[vii] In that case, the CHRT awarded damages to Mr. Bilac in the amount of $15,000 for pain and suffering ($12,000 against the employer and $3,000 against the co-worker), and $3,000 in special damages.[viii] As special damages are punitive in nature, the Tribunal may choose to award them in cases where the discriminatory conduct is deliberate, whether wilful or reckless.[ix] In this case, the Tribunal awarded damages as the employer, during Mr. Bilac’s employment and the Tribunal process, continuously misgendered and deadnamed Mr. Bilac, which the Tribunal found to be reckless.[x]

Everybody deserves respect in their place of work. As the Tribunal held “Employers should not expect trans employees to conceal their trans identities while at work, or as a condition of work..”[xi] For more information about your legal rights in this regard, please contact us at www.shapeyourworkplace.ca

Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

Written by: Matthew Benoit

Matthew Benoit grew up in St. Thomas, Ontario. He received his law degree at the University of Toronto after receiving an HBA and an MA in English at Wilfrid Laurier University and Lakehead University, respectively. He was awarded Lakehead University President’s Award for his academic accomplishment, community service, and contribution to the welfare of the university. His areas of academic interest are comics, Indigenous literature, literary theory, ludonarratives, Medieval and Early Modern literature, and science fiction. His areas of legal interest are administrative, constitutional, and criminal law. He is currently articling at the Northumberland Community Legal Centre and previously summered at the Middlesex County Crown Attorney’s Office. He enjoys academic writing, hiking, gaming, fencing, tennis, and weightlifting.

Disclaimer: This post contains general legal information as of November 20, 2024, that may or may not apply in a particular situation. It is important to note that the law, government policies and available programs can change, and this blog will not be updated to reflect these changes. It is highly recommended to seek legal advice from a lawyer about your particular situation.

[i] Human Rights Code, RSO 1990, c H 19 at § 7 (2).

[ii] Canadian Human Rights Act, RSC 1985, c H-6 at § 14 (1) (c) [CHRA].

[iii] Ibid, at § 14 (2).

[iv] Ibid, at § 3 (1).

[v] Bill 33, Toby’s Act (Right to be Free from Discrimination and Harassment Because of Gender Identity or Gender Expression), 2012, 1st Sess, 40th Leg, Ontario, 2012 (assented to 19 June 2012).

[vi] Bill C-15, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code, 1st Sess, 42nd Parl, 2017 (assented to 19 June 2017).

[vii] Bilac v. Abbey, Currie and NC Tractor Services Inc., 2023 CHRT 43 at paras 42-53 [Bilac]

[viii] Ibid, at para 195.

[ix] CHRA at § 53 (3).

[x] Bilac at para 171.

[xi] Ibid, at para 173.

Sexual Harassment in the Real Estate Industry

As specialists in sexual violence prevention and trauma-informed care, VESTA is honoured to partner with Your Way Forward‘s expert employment lawyers to bring you guidance on workplace sexual harassment in Ontario. Drawing on VESTA’s expertise in addressing gender-based violence and Your Way Forward’s deep knowledge of employment law, this series provides essential information for Ontario workers navigating workplace sexual harassment. Our hope is that this collaborative approach combining trauma-informed support with practical legal guidance will help you understand your rights and options.

For immediate assistance, contact Your Way Forward’s legal team at 1-800-850-7882.

This post has been re-posted with permission. If you’d like to see the original post, click here.


Real estate can be a challenging area to work in. The industry frequently presents risky situations to workers, who may feel required to engage with these situations as “part of the job.” Agents are commonly expected to meet with clients, who are often strangers, alone in homes that could be secluded or lack cell reception. This, in particular, poses dangers to women in the industry. This can be compounded by sexual harassment that occurs in the professional environment as well.

Sexual harassment in the workplace often occurs in situations of an unequal distribution of power. Workers are harassed by their supervisors, and because of the imbalance of power between these two positions, they often feel powerless to safeguard their rights or address the issue. This is especially heightened in situations where supervisors also perform a mentorship role. This is often the case in real estate, where senior members of a firm or agency often train and mentor newer workers.

In Panucci v. Seller’s Choice Stockdale Realty Ltd., 2015 HRTO 1579, the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario (HRTO) found that a salesperson working under a broker of record at a real estate brokerage firm was discriminated against and harassed. She worked for the firm from 2007 to 2012, and she enjoyed a professional and respectful relationship for much of that time. However, beginning in late 2011 or early 2012, she began to receive commentary about her looks from her supervising broker. He also began to impose physical contact on her, hugging her and, on one occasion, caressing her in a dimly lit room. After she confronted the broker about his conduct, their work relationship turned frosty, and he stopped assisting her with getting new listings or providing her with much guidance. In that case, the Tribunal ordered the firm to pay $15,000 to Ms. Panucci for violating her inherent right to be free from discrimination and for injury to dignity, feelings and self-respect. The Tribunal also ordered the firm to develop and implement a policy for preventing and addressing sexual harassment in the workplace.

Where conduct by supervisors crosses the line into harassment, so supervisees should feel comfortable addressing the conduct directly, setting personal boundaries, and reporting behaviour. Workers should also be cared for during the investigation and remediation of sexual harassment complaints. Likewise, supervisors should be careful to avoid behaviours that might make their supervisees uncomfortable. They should be mindful of how their behaviour might affect workers and vigilant for any signs of worker discomfort. An open and responsive conversation where such a situation arises inadvertently can give all parties peace of mind and avoid the consequences of potential litigation.


Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

Written by: Matthew Benoit

*Matthew Benoit grew up in St. Thomas, Ontario. He received his law degree at the University of Toronto after receiving an HBA and an MA in English at Wilfrid Laurier University and Lakehead University, respectively. He was awarded Lakehead University President’s Award for his academic accomplishment, community service, and contribution to the university’s welfare. His academic interests include comics, Indigenous literature, literary theory, ludo-narratives, Medieval and Early Modern literature, and science fiction. His areas of legal interest are administrative, constitutional, and criminal law. He is articling at the Northumberland Community Legal Centre and previously summered at the Middlesex County Crown Attorney’s Office. He enjoys academic writing, hiking, gaming, fencing, tennis, and weightlifting.

Disclaimer: This post contains general legal information as of January 21, 2025, that may or may not apply in a particular situation. It is important to note that the law, government policies and available programs can change, and this blog will not be updated to reflect these changes. It is highly recommended to seek legal advice from a lawyer about your particular situation.

Sexual Harassment in the Restaurant Industry

As specialists in sexual violence prevention and trauma-informed care, VESTA is honoured to partner with Your Way Forward‘s expert employment lawyers to bring you guidance on workplace sexual harassment in Ontario. Drawing on VESTA’s expertise in addressing gender-based violence and Your Way Forward’s deep knowledge of employment law, this series provides essential information for Ontario workers navigating workplace sexual harassment. Our hope is that this collaborative approach combining trauma-informed support with practical legal guidance will help you understand your rights and options.

For immediate assistance, contact Your Way Forward’s legal team at 1-800-850-7882.

This post has been re-posted with permission. If you’d like to see the original post, click here.


Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

The Supreme Court of Canada has held that “When sexual harassment occurs in the workplace, it is an abuse of both economic and sexual power. Sexual harassment is a demeaning practice, one that constitutes a profound affront to the dignity of the employees forced to endure it. By requiring an employee to contend with unwelcome sexual actions or explicit sexual demands, sexual harassment in the workplace attacks the dignity and self-respect of the victim both as an employee and as a human being.”

The restaurant industry is one of the largest employment fields: “In Ontario, restaurants employ 440,000 people, or 6.4% of the workforce, and more than one in five Canadians between the ages of 15 and 24 work in the industry.” Additionally, for frontline workers such as bartenders, hosts, and wait staff, women under 24 compose one-third of workers. As such, the environment that restaurants foster can have a widespread impact on the workforce, particularly on workers under 24.

Restaurants are one of the types of workplaces most replete with sexual harassment. Restaurant work “is organized in a way that constrains worker resistance to unwanted sexual attention and sexual harassment, shaping an environment in which, over time, sexual conduct can come to be thought of by women workers as a “normal” and sometimes an accepted feature of the work.” Adding to this is the worker-client dynamic. Customers often harass restaurant workers; in forms of employment that involve the practice of tipping, a worker may be more reticent to confront a situation where a customer is harassing them.

A worker may bring a sexual harassment claim to the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario (HRTO) against their workplace. While an employer is not responsible for the immediate conduct of a customer, an employer’s failure or refusal to adequately address sexual harassment workers experience from customers contributes to maintaining a toxic, discriminatory environment. An example of this is the case of Ankamah v. Chauhan Food Services, 2010 HRTO 2024 (CanLII); the HRTO found the owner of a Tim Horton’s franchise liable for not having taken steps to protect their employee from sexual harassment they experienced from a regular customer. In making their finding of liability, the HRTO noted that “ In summary, the organizational respondent is liable to the extent that the applicant’s store manager failed to respond promptly and sensitively to the applicant’s disclosure of the incidents, thus leaving the applicant to believe for several days that her employer was not prepared to create a healthy, safe and discrimination-free environment for her.”

So, the question is: how can restaurants proactively prevent sexual harassment and address it when it does occur? My suggestions are:

1. Employers develop and enforce a zero-tolerance policy for sexual harassment among workers and customers. Worker complaints about sexual harassment from any party should be fulsomely investigated and be cause for termination or denial of service.

2. Promote an environment encouraging workers to disclose incidents of sexual harassment.

3. Workers should be educated about their rights and what constitutes sexual harassment.

Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project


Written by: By: Matthew Benoit

Matthew Benoit grew up in St. Thomas, Ontario. He received his law degree at the University of Toronto after receiving an HBA and an MA in English at Wilfrid Laurier University and Lakehead University, respectively. He was awarded Lakehead University President’s Award for his academic accomplishment, community service, and contribution to the welfare of the university. His areas of academic interest are comics, Indigenous literature, literary theory, ludonarratives, Medieval and Early Modern literature, and science fiction. His areas of legal interest are administrative, constitutional, and criminal law. He is currently articling at the Northumberland Community Legal Centre and previously summered at the Middlesex County Crown Attorney’s Office. He enjoys academic writing, hiking, gaming, fencing, tennis, and weightlifting.

Disclaimer: This post contains general legal information as of January 13, 2025, that may or may not apply in a particular situation. It is important to note that the law, government policies and available programs can change, and this blog will not be updated to reflect these changes. It is highly recommended to seek legal advice from a lawyer about your particular situation.


What legal remedies can I seek if I experience sexual harassment at work?

As specialists in sexual violence prevention and trauma-informed care, VESTA is honoured to partner with Your Way Forward‘s expert employment lawyers to bring you guidance on workplace sexual harassment in Ontario. Drawing on VESTA’s expertise in addressing gender-based violence and Your Way Forward’s deep knowledge of employment law, this series provides essential information for Ontario workers navigating workplace sexual harassment. Our hope is that this collaborative approach combining trauma-informed support with practical legal guidance will help you understand your rights and options.

For immediate assistance, contact Your Way Forward’s legal team at 1-800-850-7882.

This post has been re-posted with permission. If you’d like to see the original post, click here.


Experiencing sexual harassment in your workplace can have devastating consequences, including experiencing anxiety, depression, symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, reduced self-esteem and confidence, headaches, sleep difficulties and other health consequences. Your career goals can also be impacted by job loss, decreased job satisfaction, not being provided with the same training and promotion opportunities as others and the damage that sexual harassment can cause to the workplace culture and your relationship with co-workers and management. [i]

This article will explore several options for seeking legal remedies for the damages incurred because of workplace sexual harassment in Ontario and the pros and cons of each option, including bringing a claim to the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario, bringing a civil claim, and claiming WSIB benefits.

Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario

Sexual harassment is expressly prohibited in the Human Rights Code[ii] as follows:

Every person who is an employee has a right to freedom from harassment in the workplace because of sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression by their employer or agent of the employer or by another employee. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.19, s. 7 (2); 2012, c. 7, s. 6 (2).

The Human Rights Code also recognizes that damages for sexual harassment can be more significant if the person doing the harassing is “in a position to confer grant or deny a benefit or advancement,” particularly “reprisal or a threat of reprisal for the rejection of a sexual solicitation.” [iii] The HRTO will also award additional damages if they find that the employer reprised against the worker for having made a complaint about sexual harassment.

You must bring a claim related to sexual harassment in employment to the HRTO within one year of the last incident of discrimination and/or sexual harassment you experienced.

Types of remedies available at HRTO

The Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario enforces the Human Rights Code. The types of damages you can seek from HRTO[iv] related to sexual harassment include:

1. Compensation for injuries to your dignity, feelings, and self-respect:

Although this type of damage is hard to quantify, the HRTO has awarded up to $200,000 in damages to claimants who have experienced severe and repeated incidents of sexual harassment in the workplace context[v]. The average compensation award for this type of complaint has increased substantially in the past 10 years from $12,000-$15,000 to $30,000- $50,000. Some of the factors the HRTO will consider when assessing damages are the severity of the conduct, the number and frequency of incidents, the vulnerability of the complainant, and the impact that the conduct had on the target’s mental health. [vi]

2. Loss of income:

If you lost income from employment because of sexual harassment or were denied benefits and bonuses, the tribunal can compensate you for this.

3. Reimbursement:

If you have incurred expenses, such as treatment expenses related to the damage to your health caused by the sexual harassment or costs because you had to move due to the sexual harassment, HRTO can reimburse you for these.

4. Non-monetary Remedies:

The HRTO can order remedies that a court is incapable of, such as reinstatement to your former position, which would put you back in the position you would have been in if the discrimination had not occurred. They can also order people to apologize to you, which is not something a court would do.

5. Public Interest Remedies (PIRs):

The HRTO can order the employer to comply with the code, such as providing training to management and employees, improving their HR policies, etc. This aims to prevent similar harassment and discrimination from happening in the future.

b) Advantages of Pursuing a Claim at HRTO

One advantage of pursuing a claim at HRTO is that, unlike court actions, there are no filing fees and no risk of cost awards against you if your claim is dismissed. As noted above, there are some remedies that HRTO can order (such as reinstatement, training, and policy changes) that courts cannot grant you. Furthermore, the damages for injury to your feelings, dignity and self-respect are not taxable, and most income replacement programs do not consider this income and do not claw it back.

c) Disadvantages of Pursuing a Claim at HRTO

You can only pursue claims of discrimination at HRTO. As a result, if you have other legal issues related to your employment, such as wrongful dismissal or breach of contract, you would have to pursue those separately. There are long delays at HRTO due to a large backlog of files. [vii]

Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

Civil Claims

To make a civil court claim relating to sexual harassment in the workplace, there must also be other legal issues for the court to deal with, such as assault or other forms of harassment that are not related to human rights, a wrongful or constructive dismissal, breach of contract issues or another tort such as defamation. [viii] The claim must be brought within 2 years of the last related incident. If the damages are predicted to be less than $35,000, the claim should be brought to a small claims court. Any claim over $35,000 can be brought to the Superior Court of Justice.

Types of Remedies the Court can Order:

The civil court can award many remedies including, but not limited to:

1. Pay instead of notice:

f the worker was terminated without the proper amount of notice, for discriminatory reasons or out of reprisal for having complained about workplace harassment, the court can order the employer to pay an amount representing the amount of notice that should have been given. This is a complex calculation based on factors such as the age of the Plaintiff, the amount of time they worked for the employer, the amount of their pay, the nature of their employment and whether any exceptional circumstances could make it more difficult for that employee to find alternative jobs such as a disability, pregnancy, etc…[ix]

2. Human Rights Damages:

The court can award an amount to compensate the claimant for the injury to their dignity, feelings, and self-respect caused by the defendant(s) ‘s discriminatory behaviour.

3.   Moral Damages/ Punitive Damages: If an employee can provide evidence that they were dismissed in a manner that caused them mental distress, the court can award damages for this over and above the amount of pay instead of notice[x]. Punitive damages can be awarded if the employer is shown to have acted in bad faith in the manner of dismissal.

4.   Reimbursement of Expenses: The court can order an employer to reimburse an employee for treatment, moving expenses, etc. if these expenses can be linked to the employer’s actions.

b) Advantages of Civil Claims: One advantage of bringing a civil claim is the ability to bring up legal issues that arose in your employment unrelated to sexual harassment. Also, the amount of damages awarded for human rights, moral, and punitive damages often exceed the compensation awarded by HRTO.

c) Disadvantages of Civil Claims: There are many downsides to bringing a civil claim, such as the risk of being ordered to pay the other party’s legal costs if you are unsuccessful, the time it takes to get to a hearing if the matter doesn’t settle, and the difficulty of navigating the rules and paperwork related to such a claim.

Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

Workplace Safety and Insurance Board (WSIB)

When sexual harassment occurs in the employment context and causes the victim to require time off work and/or to seek treatment, this could be considered a compensable workplace accident. Depending on the nature of the sexual harassment, a claim can be made under the Traumatic Mental Stress or Chronic Mental Stress Policy. A claim must be made within 6 months of the date of injury.

A worker can claim under the Traumatic Mental Stress policy if they have suffered injuries because of a traumatic instance or several traumatic instances of workplace harassment, which WSIB defines as to “engage in a course of vexatious comment or conduct against a worker, including bullying, that is known or ought reasonably to be known to be unwelcome” [xi].

A worker can also claim under the Chronic Mental Stress policy for workplace harassment if the harassment caused a significant stressor, which resulted in an “appropriately diagnosed mental stress injury” [xii].

Types of benefits available

1.   Loss of Earnings Benefit[xiii]: An injured worker who has lost time from work due to their injuries may be entitled to Loss of Earnings Benefits, which represent 85% of the income you usually would have received from employment.

2.   Health Care Benefits [xiv]: WSIB will reimburse workers for treating work-related injuries. This can include the costs of counselling or other therapies for PTSD related to having experienced sexual harassment in the workplace. WSIB will also reimburse you for the travel expenses for treatment.

3.   Return to Work Benefits[ xv]/ Work Transition Benefits: WSIB provides benefits for injured workers who cannot return to their previous employment and/or retrain for another type of employment due to their injuries.

4.   Non-Economic Loss Benefits[xvi]: Non-Economic loss benefits are for injured workers with a permanent impairment because of workplace injury. The amount given depends on the degree of permanent impairment the worker is assessed. These benefits are akin to damages for pain and suffering and are not taxable or deducted from other benefits such as Employment Insurance or Ontario Disability Support Benefits.

b)   Advantages of Pursuing a Claim with WSIB: If WSIB approves your claim, you will receive more in loss of earnings than you would if you claimed sick benefits from employment insurance. As well, your related healthcare costs will be covered by WSIB. Depending on what you do for a living, there can also be a substantial benefit to receiving assistance in retraining if you cannot return to work.

c)   Disadvantages of pursuing a claim with WSIB: up to 94% of mental injury claims are denied by WSIB, and the appeal process can be long and stressful[xvii]. Making a claim for WSIB may also interfere with your ability to seek remedies from a grievance process, civil court and the Human Rights Tribunal, as WSIB has “exclusive jurisdiction to examine, hear and decide all matters and questions arising under the [WSIA], except where [the WSIA] provides otherwise.” [xviii] Finally, the amount of damages you are awarded under the non-economic loss benefits is often much lower than the damages awarded by HRTO, the civil courts and through a grievance.

Conclusion

Before bringing a claim of any kind related to sexual harassment, it is highly advisable to seek the advice of a lawyer so they can provide guidance about what type of claim would work best in a particular situation and prevent a situation where a claim is brought in the wrong venue, thereby potentially barring a different kind of claim from being brought. There are several options for obtaining free legal advice in Ontario, including SHAPE (Sexual Harassment Advice Prevention Education), a coalition of community legal clinics providing free public legal education and legal advice about preventing and addressing workplace sexual harassment. As part of this project, we offer free workshops for students, service providers, employers, and employees on topics related to rights in employment, particularly the right to have a psychologically safe work environment. We also publish blogs on related issues, which you can find at www.pclcsvprojects.com, and we have an awareness campaign through our social media sites. For more information or free legal advice related to sexual harassment, go to www.shapeyourworkplace.ca, call 1-800-850-7882 or email us at info@shapeyourworkplace.ca.

Contact the Sexual Harassment at Work Project

Written by: Anne-Marie Langan BA, BSW, LL.B., LL.M.

Anne-Marie is the project lead for the sexual violence projects at Peterborough Community Legal Center, including the SHAPE project, which provides legal advice and education for those experiencing sexual harassment in the workplace and the Your Way Forward project which provides support for those who have experienced intimate partner sexual violence. These projects are sponsored by the government of Canada’s Justice Department and Legal Aid Ontario. She can be reached directly at anne-marie.langan@ptbo-nogo.clcj.ca .

 

 

Disclaimer: This post contains general legal information as of January 22, 2025, that may or may not apply in a particular situation. It is important to note that the law, government policies and available programs can change, and this blog will not be updated to reflect these changes. It is highly recommended to seek legal advice from a lawyer.

Endnotes:

[i] Ramaco College (2017, January 31). Consequences of sexual harassment. Title IX. https://www.ramapo.edu/titleix/sexual-harassment-resources/consequences-sexual-harassment/#:~:text=For%20Victims,to%20interpersonal%20relationships%20at%20work.&text=In%20addition%2C%20in%20the%20higher,unproductive%20working%20and%20learning%20environment.

[ii] Human Rights Code[ii], R.S.O. 1990, c. H.19, s.7(2)

[iii] Ibid. s.7(3), s.7(4)

[iv] HRLSC. (2023, July 6). Additional information – section 8 (remedy). Human Rights Legal Support Center. https://hrlsc.on.ca/how-to-guides/completing-and-filing-an-hrto-application/additional-informationsection-8-the-remedy/#:~:text=Public%20interest%20remedies%20can%20have,from%20happening%20in%20the%20future

[vi] Honor M Lay, Assessing the Damage: Money Awards by the OHRT in Sexual Harassment Cases, 2019 9-2 Western Journal of Legal Studies 1, 2019 CanLIIDocs 1745, <https://canlii.ca/t/sj8w>, retrieved on 2025-01-06

[vii] Tribunal Watch Ontario. (2024, May 21). The Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario: A continuing crisis. https://tribunalwatch.ca/2024/the-human-rights-tribunal-of-ontario-a-continuing-crisis/

[viii] Can I file a civil claim for sexual harassment?*. (n.d.). https://hrlsc.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Legal-Info-Booklet-7-Can-I-File-a-Civil-Claim-for-Workplace-Sexual-Harassment-ENG-DIGITAL-Nov-17-1-au.pdf

[ix]Bune Law Articles. (2022, April 6). How to calculate wrongful dismissal damages. Employment Lawyer Toronto. https://bunelaw.com/how-to-calculate-wrongful-dismissal-damages/

[x] Moral damages awarded to the dismissed employee. Rudner Law. (2023, December 18). https://www.rudnerlaw.ca/moral-damages-awarded-to-dismissed-employee/#:~:text=Moral%20damages%20are%20one%20such,of%20the%20reasonable%20notice%20period.

[xi] Traumatic mental stress. WSIB. (n.d.-e). https://www.wsib.ca/en/operational-policy-manual/traumatic-mental-stress

[xii] Chronic mental stress. WSIB. (n.d.-b). https://www.wsib.ca/en/operational-policy-manual/chronic-mental-stress

[xiii] Loss of earnings benefit. WSIB. (n.d.). https://www.wsib.ca/en/loss-earnings-benefit

[xiv] Loss of earnings benefit. WSIB. (n.d.-b). https://www.wsib.ca/en/loss-earnings-benefit

[xv] Getting help with return-to-work. WSIB. (n.d.-a). https://www.wsib.ca/en/injured-or-ill-people/return-work/getting-help-return-work

[xvi] Benefits for non-economic loss. WSIB. (n.d.-a). https://www.wsib.ca/en/benefits-non-economic-loss

[xvii] Should you apply for workers comp? (on). Aftermath. (2023, February 14). https://www.aftermetoo.com/article/should-you-apply-for-workers-comp/on/

[xviii] Litigating workers’ compensation issues outside the WSIB and WSIAT. OBA.org. (2020, April 27). https://www.oba.org/Sections/Labour-Employment-Law/Articles/Articles-2020/April-2020/Litigating-Workers-Compensation-Issues-Outside-of

About Us

We’re on a mission to do what
some may say is impossible:
Eliminate Rape Culture.

Our Story

Hi, my name is Lucrezia, and I am the Founder & CEO of VESTA. I believe that everyone no matter their gender has the right to be safe. According to the United Nations, sexual assault, and gender-based violence is the most under reported crime globally. The rates of gender-based violence and domestic violence skyrocketed during the pandemic and online abuse is everywhere. Survivors can’t equally participate in the economy and in our society if we live in fear or in trauma. I created VESTA to help all those impacted by sexual violence. But I also created it for others to do what I couldn’t do: get help and get justice. So, this is personal. An information and reporting app by itself can’t change the world. Or can it?

 

What if it could increase a survivor’s sense of autonomy? What if it could empower, instead of silence survivors? What if it could decrease the experience of isolation, stigma, and the associated mental health impacts of sexual violence? What if it could build bridges between survivors and law enforcement? What if it could help the gender-based violence sector be more responsive and innovative? Would it lead to higher reporting and conviction rates? Could it lead to more comprehensive data on impacts of gender-based violence? Could it lead to a safer world? If it did all that, could it lead to gender equality?
What if it could?
With you every step of the way.

Created by Survivors.

From the beginning and at every stage of development, survivors’ voices and lived experiences have informed the development of our resources, our technology, how and where we show up in person and online. This isn’t just an exercise in research but having survivors and allies as members of the VESTA team.

Having representation internally ensures that we continue to learn and it embodies the ethos of “nothing for us, without us.”

Grounded in Research.

From the start, the goal has been to create meaningful tools that draw from data, evidence and lived experiences. It started in coffee shops. One-on-one meetings with survivors sharing their experiences, interviews with support service providers, law enforcement, social epidemiologists, family, legal and community service providers. The goal is to understand the barriers faced by survivors and the challenges faced by those committed to supporting them.

We’re always learning. If you are a researcher and are interested in collaborating on a research project or want to share your research with us, book a session here.

If you want to know more about some of our past research efforts, click here.

Vetted by Experts.

A beta version of the application that would become VESTA Community was reviewed by experts in social services, law enforcement, criminal justice, privacy, and security. Taking a 360-degree view of the challenges faced by survivors, social workers, investigators, and prosecutors led to a system that balances the needs of survivors, decreases unintentional retraumatizing during the reporting process and leads to a more credible and reliable witness should charges be laid, and the case goes to trial.

If you’re a representative of an organization that would like to partner with us, see our Partners page or book an info session with us here.

Empowering Survivors

Innovative Strategies for Safer Communities

At VESTA, we use innovative strategies and cutting-edge technology to empower survivors and create safer communities. Our team of experts is dedicated to providing unparalleled support and resources to help survivors heal and thrive.

Our Mission

VESTA is on a mission to end rape culture. We are harnessing the power of community and technology to lower the barriers to reporting, and to increasing and equalizing access to resources.

Our Vision

We envision a more equitable world. Our vision is that by ensuring individuals have agency, choice and equal treatment under the law, systemic change can and will occur.

FAQ

Here’s our top 4 FAQ’s, for more questions and answers click here.

VESTA provides survivors with:

  • a safe, secure and private space to document their experience in their own words and at their own pace
  • time to decide whether or not they want to access services or file a formal report;
    online and in person supports to help them on their own unique path to healing and to justice.

VESTA Community provides partner community agencies with:

  • dashboard view of aggregated anonymous data
  • intake and management of identified survivor reports
  • standardized reports for funders or other stakeholders

VESTA provides partner law enforcement agencies with:

  • a view of aggregated anonymous data allowing for problem identification even if survivors do not want to formally report
  • a clear, concise, time stamped survivor account;
    ability to proactively devise an investigation plan before speaking with the survivor reducing re-traumatization.

Integrating VESTA into your organization promotes a more positive outcome for survivors and creates safer communities for all.

The short answer is yes.

In Canada, there is no statute of limitations for sexual assault. If police are unable to locate an offender or opt not to press charges, that case will remain open and active.

If you report an incident of sexual assault, you are not obligated to move forward with a criminal case; however, you can still access support services to help with your recovery. Services include face-to-face counselling, legal and medical services, personal safety planning and public education.

Unsolved sexual assault cases are never closed.

Vesta Community is a mobile friendly web application that uses technology to facilitate and enhance Third Party Reporting (TPR). Third Party Reporting (TPR) or anonymous reporting of sexual assault has been adopted in different forms by police services and community organizations across Canada. TPR is a process which allows adult survivors to access support and to report details of a sexual assault to police anonymously, through a designated community program or trusted intermediary.

 

The intent or purpose of TPR is to create an alternate route for survivors who feel marginalized or have a fear of police to access the system and support services. TPR is not a substitute for 911, nor is it a police investigation. The goal and hope is that by using anonymous reporting tools, like Vesta Community, folks who wouldn’t usually reach out to support or social services, connect with someone who can help them, even if they DO NOT WANT TO FILE A POLICE REPORT. Survivors can still access local or virtual support, even if they don’t want police to know their names. TPR can then lead to an official police complaint once the survivor feels comfortable with sharing their story, but it isn’t a requirement.

 

Anonymous reports can also benefit community organizations and the police. Sexual assault and other forms of gender based violence are severely under reported. Community organizations, including police, cannot allocate time or resources if they are not aware that a problem exists. Anonymous data will help them allocate proper resources.

 

Vesta Community draws on academic and primary research in anonymous reporting, written response protocols, trauma informed interviewing, third-party reporting protocols in Canada and innovative, digital solutions developed around the world. Different forms of anonymous reporting exist around the world. It has been called blind reporting, restricted reporting, or third party reporting.

 

Vesta Community was developed and continues to improve with feedback from survivors, researchers, frontline organizations and sexual assault centers in Ontario, Canada.

We consider privacy, security, and data privacy to be critical components of our solution and are at the foundation of everything we do. We incorporate Privacy and Security by Design in all we do.

 

All records transferred and stored within Vesta Community use bank-level TLS 2.0 and AES-256 encryption technology. This encryption works by taking plain text and converting it into random characters. Even if our system was hacked, all the hackers would see are random characters.

 

Vesta exceeds privacy and security requirements in Canada and abroad, including PIPEDA, PHIPA and more. Our innovation is a cloud based solution with data centers located in Canada that are ISO 27001, SOC 1 and SOC 2 certified.

Research and Development
We build research-based technology.
Forget the hype and the gimmicks. How do we make an impact and drive real change? How do we help survivors, our communities and improve our systems? We collaborate with academic institutions and researchers to investigate the intersection of gender based violence and technology to create tools that work for everyone.
If you are a researcher and are interested in collaborating on a research project, book a session below.
If you want to know more about some of our past research efforts, click here.

Podcast – Lucrezia

Podcast guest:

Lucrezia Spagnolo, Founder/CEO of VESTA

Listen to episode 05:

Reflections on acting within the GBV space

Synopsis

This conversation between Ilyas and Lucrezia Spagnolo dives into Lucrezia’s journey of building Vesta SIT, and how action in the GBV space can be helpful rather than harmful. Lucrezia uses personal stories and anecdotes about how she has experienced men either helping or perpetuating GBV norms, and reflects on the arc of the Yes All Men podcast as a whole. Lucrezia and Ilyas share their learnings from past guests, and Lucrezia provides a concrete call to action for men who want to make a difference to those in their lives affected by GBV.

About the guest

Lucrezia Spagnolo

Lucrezia Spagnolo is the founder and CEO of VESTA Social Innovation Technologies; a social enterprise transforming how individuals who have experienced gender based violence seek and access justice.

Lucrezia is on a mission to harness the power of community and technology to lower the barriers to reporting, and to increase and equalize access to resources. Her vision is that by ensuring individuals have agency, choice and equal treatment under the law, systemic change can and will occur.

A proud alumna of McGill University, Lucrezia has over 20 years of experience at the forefront of innovation, as an executive and as an entrepreneur. She is the grateful daughter of enterprising immigrant parents and a lover of travel and exploration. When she isn’t busy with VESTA, you can probably find her on a hiking trail or in a foreign country exploring their culture, history and food.

Transcript

Ilyas

Hi, welcome to “YES, ALL MEN!” – a podcast about masculinity and sexual violence. My name is Ilyas and I’m fairly new to the gender based violence field. I really want to know what my role is as a man within this space. And over the course of this series, I will talk with experts who can help me figure it out. If you’ll listen alongside me as I have these conversations, hopefully we can all come out with a new perspective.

Now, let’s jump in.

Ilyas

So welcome back to yes. Allman. Today’s guest is Lucretia. I’m lucretia. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?


Lucrezia
Sure. So my name is Lucretia Espanola and I am the founder and CEO of Vista.


Ilyas
And just as a disclaimer, we’ve been talking for the past eight months or so as I’ve been kind of working here and it’s been a really amazing experience and. Today, we’re going to talk a little. About how you’ve kind of positioned yourself in this space and all of the great work that you’ve done. And so just to start off, can you tell us a little bit about that? Like how do you position yourself in the gender based violence space?


Lucrezia
Sure. And yes, it’s been great to have you part of the team, Elias, and I’m really excited about this podcast series that we’ve been able to support and that you’ve been able to host and and thank you for having me as. The guest. So to answer your question, To answer your question. I see myself and approach the work as a survivor, a researcher, a technologist, and as a social entrepreneur. I understand gender based violence from multiple points of view. I understand it. First and foremost, from the point of view of a survivor. I’m one of the 95% of individuals that have experienced gender based violence and never reported it or soft professional help. I understand it from the point of view of a researcher. Since 2,017, I’ve been conducting primary and secondary research into all forms of gender based violence, in person and online. I’ve been fortunate enough to work with some fantastic researchers from the University of British Columbia, and to date we’ve published 2 academic and Peer reviewed papers. I’ve also spoken with some fantastic researchers with decades of experience, where they provided me with information on best practices from around the world. I also approach the work from the point of view of a technologist. I know what it’s like to build conscientious technology that supports survivors and their individual journeys towards healing into alternative forms of justice. I also understand what it’s like to build trauma informed practices and anti oppressive practices into that technology while adhering to strict privacy and data protection protocols. And finally, I understand it as a social entrepreneur. I know what it’s like to build and fundraise for an organization that is dedicated to the eradication of rape culture.


Ilyas
Yeah, you’ve been in a lot of different spaces and a lot of different kind of pieces of expertise have been brought together through your work here and. I know when we were talking about this episode, we came up with a little a little kind of tag line, so to speak, and we were talking about you gotta start with why frame the where learn the how build the what and The Who will benefit. And so to kind of follow that. Like, why did you take on something as big as ending rape culture as your vision for, for Vesta and for this kind of social enterprise?


Lucrezia
Wow, that is a big question. Well, I think that for me, it started with. You know, as you said, it’s it’s, I actually started it at the end was who did I want to benefit. And then I started looking backwards and saying, OK, well, if I want to really help survivors, what I realized is that it was a bigger question. And the bigger question was rape culture. That was the motivating factor. Looking back, when I came to this space was around 2016. I started having an idea around rape culture and what shocked me was the political discourse that was happening in Canada and the United States around women. Around that there was some big profile cases both in Canada and the United States and what shocked me was the pervasiveness of. Of it. Of the pervasiveness of gender based violence and the language that was being used and how dismissed women were and how dismissed their claims were. And I thought the bigger issue was how do we address rape culture? And that’s where it started. The idea started germinating and from there it started to take a snowball effect.


Ilyas
Yeah, I know. We’ve talked about in previous episodes of this podcast, sort of how men perpetuate and are involved in rape culture, very kind of deeply. And in that vein, you mentioned that you were, you got into this space and you were looking at certain high profile case and cases in Canada and the US so like, is Canada unique in the gender based? Space. Is there something that like separates us from the rest of the world, and if so, like? So and if not like what are kind of some of the more global patterns of gender based violence that we’re facing?


Lucrezia
Right. Well, I wouldn’t actually say that Canada is unique in any way. I think that might surprise some people. When I actually started my research early on, before it was actually real research and I put real, if you will, in quotes was I was just talking to friends and family and people that I came across. And what I started to realize is people thought that this was something that happened somewhere else. No one, unless that they were a victim or a survivor themselves. Unless they worked in this space, whether they were in some way either counselors or whether they were in law enforcement, whether they worked in hospitals. Those individuals understood that sexual assaults and rape and gender based violence in general happens here in Canada, whereas the general population felt that this was something, oh, this happens elsewhere. This isn’t something that happens here. This does not happen in our schools. This does not happen. In our workplaces, this happened somewhere else and that was to me quite surprising to realize that there was this lack of knowledge, if you will. And early on, when I was looking at. How can I help? How can I make an impact in this space? I was told over and over again that technology had no space here, that this was a people problem that required a people based solution and I was also told that it was an awareness and an education problem. And then me too happened. And once me too happened. It was like, well, you can’t become more aware you. It really went around the world and rebounded around the world. And so going back to some of those people and saying, well, OK, now we’re aware now what what’s the next step?


Ilyas
And you mentioned a lot of people would say it’s like this doesn’t happen here. It doesn’t happen in our schools, our workplaces and in our backyard, so to speak and.

Ilyas
I know that like for gender based violence, there are many women who are kind of directly affected by it and you you said yourself you’re a survivor. And so I’m wondering, given that the technology space is like a very kind of male dominated space, like is there, is there a difference in recognitions of like the broad nature of this problem in different spaces is there? Like an area that, like it, was more surprising to people that like, oh, oh, wow. Like, this actually happens or.


Lucrezia
I don’t know if it was really an oh wow. I think that there were certain places where people traditionally or think that, you know, as people got more educated as society became more educated as the media started picking up more and more of these stories and it became something where at one point you couldn’t turn on the news. Still, to this day, actually, four out of five days, probably if you turn on the news. There is something about a sexual assault, a sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior at some space or another, over the last few years, we’ve heard about it in sports. Here we’re hearing about it more and more. We’re hearing about it more and more now in like virtual reality spaces. We’re hearing about it in technological spaces. Right. So we’re hearing about it more then there was even two years ago we started hearing about walkouts in some of the Canadian universities because students now were protesting against the universities because they were saying the way they’re addressing gender based violence on campus. So I’m not sure it’s a surprise, but rather there’s been waves of different areas where awareness and the light is being shown on different areas where now we’re starting to see and it’s becoming more public. But frankly if you look at all these stories, all these media stories, all this. Coverage you start to realize that it is so pervasive and it’s everywhere. Some of the high profile cases where in media, in television. In film, some of them were in the business world. Some of them were in the finance world. Some of them were in the sports world. Some of them were in the military. So. I think at this day and age, I think to say that you’d be surprised to find it in a certain space. It would be really hard to say because we’ve really been seeing more light being shown on these spaces.


Ilyas
And I think that’s in large part due to like advocates and like people with lived experience and people working who really have like you said Sean, not like on this issue over the past few years. And so it is getting harder and harder to deny. And so I think in that being like building a social enterprise and working on something like eradicating.


Lucrezia
Absolutely.


Ilyas
Rape culture or ending rape culture like. How how do you start something like that? Cause I imagine there are kind of like men and women in every kind of gender who wants to, like, do something and they feel like there’s like, maybe a call to action through. Either listen to this and kind of having some. Of. Their unknown unknowns become known knowns, or whatever else may be. But. Like, how do you how do you start and what are kind of some milestones that you can say like, oh, I’m heading on the right path for this.


Lucrezia
I think there’s so many different ways to start and I can’t speak to anyone else’s journey, but I can speak to my own. And for me, it was also funny enough, it goes back to your original question was how do I locate myself in this space? And so first was I wanted to see what impact could I have? What space could I hold here and what can I bring to this experience? I looked around me and what I realized was there was some great. Individuals doing some amazing work, some great organizations that were working towards building awareness. And I realized that there was, you know, some significant activists and that we’re really doing some great work. And I realized that wasn’t quite my lane. That’s not where I felt comfortable. So where I started really looking at it was, I really wanted to look at this intersection of technology. And the reason for that. Was because I realized the pervasiveness of technology as well and realized that it’s permeated every aspect of our lives. I live in an urban center. I pre COVID would take the subway every single day. To and from. And to to and from work social gatherings everywhere I was and all I did was I looked around and every, you know, public transportation, everybody was on their phone and every cafe. Everybody is on their phone. In every instance, everybody is on their phone. And I thought here we are walking around with this technology. In our pockets and everyone is connected, everyone’s online and I. Thought well, there’s got to be a way to merge the two. How do we combat something that is so pervasive that it’s available that is happening everywhere, but yet we can use tools that are so pervasive as well and saying, well, can we then use the pervasiveness of technology to our advantage to help advocate and to help build something? So that’s where it started as a kernel, if you will, an idea. And I mean I talked about stumbling across an article actually I think it was in Wired magazine and it was an op-ed piece and I thought I don’t come from a technology perspective, but here there’s this op-ed piece that somebody who’s far more skilled than I am who said that. We have the tools, so I thought if we can start putting these tools together to help support survivors, then why don’t we? But on that path I also realize that it wasn’t just about building a technological bandit. I didn’t want to go out and just build something and say here here use this. Tool and there. Was lots of tools like most of them were panic buttons and I thought, no, that doesn’t feel right to me. And so I embarked on about two to three years of research really to start understanding that intersection of. Reporting gender based violence reporting sexual assault specifically, and the catalyst for me was that. Most people I talked to said to me, well, there’s lots of options for people to report, and if they don’t want to, it’s because they don’t want to. If they’re not reporting, it’s because they don’t want to. And I thought that didn’t ring true to me. So what really helped propel that and understand what my next action was going to be was I did the research and I found that yes, 95% of individuals globally. Don’t report gender based violence or sexual assault. And is the most under reported violent crime globally. But then I stumbled upon some research out of. I believe it was the University of Michigan. Who said that 85% of people disclose? So I thought, wait a minute, 85% of people talk to somebody. And they tell someone. So what happens between that 85%? Who talked to somebody and come forward to tell somebody and the 5% that reports. So what’s happening there if we can interrupt that cycle and interrupt that first disclosure, what’s the one place that people turn to? So I found that 85% of people talked to some. And then I also found out that through our own focus groups and research that we were doing realized that almost everyone we spoke to. Turn to the Internet before they even talk to somebody. So I thought that’s the point where we can intervene. That’s the point of intervention. That’s where technology can have an impact. And that’s what started the journey.


Ilyas
And I think a big piece of that is questioning that traditional assumption that like it’s a, it’s a people problem and needs a people solution and like we even talked about in one of the previous episodes, the prevalence of technology facilitated sexual violence. And so like the the people there are like online people and I mean. Essentially, most people nowadays have some sort of online presence, whether that’s through like social media or having pictures shared or whatever else it may be. And so it makes sense that technology is like a big piece of the the solution, even in that space, and even for people I know you’ve mentioned in our previous past conversations. Like the way people disclose or who people disclose, who plays a big role in, like how their experience of living with that disclosure goes afterwards too, right?


Lucrezia
Absolutely. I mean just to that, some of our research I’d have to actually go find the source of this, but I did see something that said that the individuals that are disclosing to friends or family like informal disclosures is what they call them, right? The friends and family. There’s a large percentage of individuals. Say that if they had, their first disclosure is an informal disclosure to a friend or family. They have an overwhelmingly positive disclosure, so to me that says that a lot of the work that activism is and the activists are doing, that it’s working because people are starting to understand how to be allies, and they’re helping support their friends and. Family unfortunately, the research also shows that those that are having more formal disclosures are having a negative outcome or report that being a negative experience. So we realize that there’s the work that needs to be done. So, but going back to even some of the question you asked earlier is that I still think that technology, we can’t take people out of the the equation. Technology is a tool. It is not the solution. It is a tool that put into the hands of individuals, can help enhance the supports, right? So that’s what I’m looking at. That’s what we’re building is a tool that facilitates and it helps the individuals, but it also helps the organizations that are meant to support survivors as well.


Ilyas
And in that vein, like with this tool like, how do you define success with a tool? So is it the tool is implemented? Is it the tool? Works in the way it’s supposed to. Is it that like someone got a benefit from the tool and like, is there a way to quantify that? Is it more qualitative? Like what? What is success in this space, especially with kind of the venture that you’ve gone through?


Lucrezia
You know, that’s a really big question and and one I actually ponder quite a bit, right, because how do you find to find success in this space? So for me and what I’ve kind of landed on is a few things is one were we able to build a a tool? Yes, we that people will use and that can have positive benefits. And to me the answer is yes. What we did is we build a web application. We call it vest, the community. We implemented it in Kingston ON. We implemented with partners with the local police services. We incorporated with the Kingston police services as well as local sexual assault center to make it available to people within the Kingston area. Later on, we also had Queens. University come on board. So that means students can also use the application. So another great milestone was not just bringing we have those are two, three great milestones right. There is actually bring together services that don’t usually collaborate and individuals can access all from one place. So just rolling that out was a large milestone having individuals use the platform. To connect with law enforcement to collect with services, that was another large milestone. We also had milestones which had really net positive impacts. We saw individuals that used our platform to document their experience and also to connect with law enforcement. We actually saw charges laid. And we’ve now seen that certain individuals that have accessed our services that have gone through charges have been laid and now their cases are before the courts. We also have others that did not opt for that Ave. and actually have reached out to connect with local support services. That’s also a large milestone. So all of these to me are successes. They’re all these are huge milestones because what I want to be able to do is impact an individual’s life positively. But I don’t want to determine, nor would I want to build any kind of technologies that predetermines what success means for that individual. Is that I want to build and have been able to build an opportunity and a tool that allows individuals to choose their own paths to decide which path they want to follow. And give them the time and space to do that. And that’s what we’ve been able to do.


Ilyas
And what really pops to mind there for me is just like empowerment and. Like the tool, as a way of facilitating. Giving power to people who have had some of their kind of autonomy taken from them is that, like a fair kind of reflection.


Lucrezia
Absolutely. I mean for us, one of the things that we’re looking at is really everybody’s voice. Matters. Everybody’s everybody’s experience matters. So that’s the first thing that we want to do is give individuals who don’t feel that they have choice or they felt that their choices were taken away. We want to be able to show them that they have multiple choices and that they can choose to actually access any of those. Resources. So we put at their disposable a a tool that they can document their experience. They can collect and preserve evidence if that’s what they want to do. If they want to connect with local services, if they just want to collect with online services, we’ve created a resource library that gives information everything from mental health resources all the way up to legal options and to whether they’re in the workplace or in their schools. And they can. Access all this information or if they want to try, we’ve got healing rooms to help people. Just. Process some of their experience in their own time and their own words. So we allow individuals to have multiple options and to choose their own path and give them back if they feel that their voice has been taken away. My hope is that by using our tools and our resources that we help them regain that voice.


Ilyas
And in in that vein, so I know. In one of the previous episodes, we talked about how men often uphold. Discourses around rape culture and. Like everyone’s voice matters in more way than one as well. Right? Like in, in perpetuating this system and being able to, like, give perpetrators like a. A leave of accountability or whatever else it may be, and so. Bringing it to men and how men can kind of engage in this space that’s traditionally been kind of like. Female focused and the men’s voices haven’t kind of been as strong. What do you think the role of men is given you’re kind of like? Positionality and how can they use their own positionality to have an effect? Maybe not to the extent that you have, but in their in their communities and their families and their kind of day-to-day lives.


Lucrezia
I think men play a significant role. I mean, one of the things that I’ve always found fascinating in this space is that. When I first approached it and I came in and I also feel that I’m a little bit still of an outsider, even though I’ve been in this space for many years now. Is that one of the things that first struck me was everything felt so siloed, and there was there were these dichotomies everywhere, so it was. Men or women, you were either feminist or you’re sexist. You either follow the law enforcement criminal Justice Ave. or you seek therapeutic or counseling support. And so then there was and I couldn’t understand even before you mentioned, you know, virtual reality. It either is in real life, something that happens in person versus what happens in virtual reality. And I never understood why there had to be this dichotomies or this division. And it’s like sexual assault and gender based violence is a layered and complex problem to solve. So that means the solution must be multifaceted, intersectional and comprehensive. So that was a long way of getting it back and saying, well, men play a significant role because first of all, I don’t want to assume that all men. Are offenders or in some way perpetrating right? There are many men that are wonderful that are allies. However, sometimes is that whether men or women, what happens is people who think they are the best intentioned individuals can actually be perpetuating stereotypes. Without even realizing they are, or actually could be as helpful as they think they’re being and their intentions are good, are actually creating harm, and I guess I can give an example. And you know one I’ll give an example with a female friend of mine is we were having this conversation many years ago when I was starting Vesta and asked why. Why would I do this? And so I started also talking about statistics and saying, well, one in four Canadian women will be sexually assaulted, 95% don’t tell someone. And that person responded to me and said that’s impossible. I was like, I don’t. And I said why I said I don’t know anyone that’s ever been assaulted. I said yes, you do. It’s like, no, I don’t. It’s like, yes, you do. So even in our and this person’s dear friend of mine, right, never would it have crossed her mind? Because in her experience, would you know, she just did not experienced that personally? There’s also men that are in similar situations. You know, when we look at how anybody can be supported. Have I think there’s been in many, you know, in my past work experience for example, I worked in financial services for many years. I worked on Bay St. for those that you know, our Canadian know where Bay Street is and for anyone else that’s listening outside of the world. Maybe Wall Street is more well known. It’s kind of like their Canada is equivalent to Wall Street. So it’s very male dominated. Then I went into a technology space where very mild dominated as well. Lots of men there that I would say that they consider themselves allies and they are feminists and they support women. But there’s a lot of things that are said that are done that are very problematic. And even though their intentions are good. They don’t. They’re actually perpetuating certain stereotypes and actually perpetuating. Harm. So if we don’t draw those individuals into the conversation and have them be part of that conversation, and that is why I was so excited about having this podcast and this podcast series, well, I think it’s so important. Is because let’s talk about this. These dichotomies that are out there. Let’s talk about some of these examples. Let’s talk about how we can be supportive and let’s talk about how we can bring people together to address this.


Ilyas
And let’s assume there are some of those men listening right now. Like, what do you think it’s important for them to hear?


Lucrezia
I think the most important thing is, is really to listen. If someone does come to you.


Lucrezia
And say they’re concerned about something or something happened to them. Give them the space to talk. And not assume or presume to know. Even if you think you’re being helpful, sometimes you’re silence. Just let them hold that space and let them speak. On the other hand, I would also have them to pause. In the sense of before responding or even in a general setting, you know when you’re in a workplace and you see somebody that you know, traditionally you might think, oh, they’re just being picked on or you know, that person is just uses certain language, you know, they’re they’re an older generation. They don’t know any.


Lucrezia
Right. Even if you don’t feel comfortable and not saying every man should confront another man. That maybe is using problematic language, but maybe just turning around to your coworker and say yeah, I heard what he said. That wasn’t cool. Is there anything you want to talk about? Even just showing that little bit of support and saying I got it, I acknowledged it. I saw it. And I see you. That could be that could change the world. Just something as simple as that.


Ilyas
I see you is probably. One of the most powerful things that can be said, at least in my mind, cause. I think a lot of the time people don’t feel seen and that can tie into shame, and we talked about that during the last episode, but just knowing that like someone is seen and someone like is valued can make such a huge difference.


Lucrezia
Absolutely. I mean, I have so many examples.


Lucrezia
And of course, in this moment my mind is a complete blank, but I have so many examples of situations that I personally have been in where it would have been nice to have someone saying. I see you. I see that. I see what was done. Right. And in certain ways, it probably would help me see certain things before I even actually noticed.


Ilyas
Yeah, I know. Like oftentimes, I will feel kind of like the urge to jump in and be kind of like the. The clunky person who tries to make things better and doesn’t really know what they’re doing, and I think that’s something a lot of men can kind of resonate with this in, in this space, like, not really knowing what to do or how to address something or like how to be and like these sorts of conversations. And to me personally, it’s really reassuring just to hear like holding space in itself is enough. And like, just letting the person know that they’re seen. Can be like a really big thing cause. I think oftentimes there’s these huge calls to action and it can make someone feel like.


Ilyas
They’re not enough if they can’t accomplish all of these things, and yeah.


Lucrezia
Yeah. I mean in that sense, I understand that personally like because sometimes I feel that I’m not doing enough, that’s does not doing enough because I want to see big numbers, big gestures, big. You know, comes big milestones and sometimes it’s actually starting. It’s even a reminder to myself and so that’s why I repeated even to myself and I would repeat it here now for anybody that is listening. It’s not those big moments, it’s actually those small moments and those small gestures that make such a large impact, right. It’s having somebody say, hey, you stood up for me. I remembered when you did that. Right. Even on the other side, as being an ally. I will share this story is a few years ago, somebody I hadn’t seen in many, many years. I’d gone to school with this person. And we were. We were friends in, you know, childhood and, you know, in junior high, if you will. And I we’ve just lost touch and just I think it was last summer this person reached out to me and said I’m going to be in town and if you’re available I’d like to. Introduced you to my children because I it really impacted me when you were there for me. And I I’ve talked about you to my children as an example, and this thing that you did for me where when we were younger is she was in a situation and I just stood beside her and was like, I just took her side, if you will. And I stood there and she said to me. I just want my children to know you because I’ve talked about you and that blew me away because to me that was an insignificant moment in my life, in the sense of I thought it was just like oh. She was being in my mind because I didn’t have the language then or the words to describe it, but I thought this person was being in my mind, picked on and bullied and it just didn’t feel right. And so I just went to stand beside this person and literally all I did is I moved my lunch. And I sat beside them and sat with them. And. Ate lunch with them. So to me that was an insignificant moment, but it meant a big deal to them and that flabbergasted me because I never thought that small little singular thing meant so much conversely. The same thing had happened to me in that I’ve been in situations before where I found myself in a workspace at a large conference. Where?


Lucrezia
Former supervisor approached me and one of the reasons I actually left that space and that organization was because I did not. Feel safe. And here I was, this conference running into this person again, and it was so surprising to me because I did not expect them in this space. I was not emotionally prepared. And this person came into my space and hugged me. And it was such a it felt like this violation of my personal boundaries. And I was not prepared for that. And the person standing beside me who knew what the history was. But didn’t intervene because they were so taken aback. And I found what was more hurtful was that that person didn’t intervene as opposed to the the hug, if that makes sense. Of course, I’ve since worked that out and realized that it’s not that person’s fault. They were in shock themselves. They didn’t know how to react, and but we talked about. And it was like, and that person was like, I didn’t know what to do. And it was like, but you. But now you see. And now you saw. And that never happened again. And to me, that meant the world, because now it was like now you see, now you know, and thank you for having my back. Because now I’m not afraid to go into those spaces because I’m not afraid of seeing that person anymore, because I know that I have others that have my back.


Ilyas
There’s a lot to that that really resonates with me, especially given our our. The previous conversation that we had in this in this podcast series the the previous episode and it talks a lot about kind of how compassion can turn into self compassion. Which can turn into community. And those are all kind of really important things from what I can sense and not only kind of like a man’s journey to be able to, to find his place within this gender based violence space, but for anyone to be able to go through.


Ilyas
The process of learning how to like show their compassion to themselves and those around them so that they can form deeper and more meaningful bonds.


Lucrezia
Absolutely. I mean, I think even when it talks to compassion, it’s interesting as you were talking. I remembered another instance where a specific friend, a man. Really came to support me in that space and it also again let me. I felt so guilty in that space, but I realized that that his actions helped me release some of that shame and some of that fear and almost have compassion for my my younger self. So to contextualize it and to give you an example, I found myself at a party. And at this party, there was a lot of individuals from different parts. I worked for some large organizations before starting Vesta, and so that we’re multinational and we found ourselves in uh, you know in. We were at a restaurant. I think it was like a Christmas party or something like that. And there was a former coworker, somebody from a completely different office in a different part of the country. And I wasn’t even part of the conversation. I only found out about later, and they were just talking as coworkers do, about different coworkers who have. You’ve talked to, who have you worked with. And this friend of mine, who was also a former boss of mine actually said, you know, he mentioned my name amongst some others. And this other gentleman said. And I’ll use gentleman loosely as a term said oh. Lucretia. I’ve heard of her. And. So he went on to recount a story that he had heard about me. And this former boss of mine looked at him and said. I don’t know that I know Lucretia. And I don’t think that story is true. And and the person kept insisting. But I heard it from. And he’s like, I don’t know what he said to you. But I know Lucretia. And that and I suggest you don’t repeat that story again. I know her. I believe her when she says nothing happened. I believe Lucretia. I only found out about that because somebody overheard that conversation and told me that that person. Had stood up for me. I was so thankful. Because. Those are the kinds of actions that really speak volumes, right, because I wasn’t there. I it was being something that was being said, if you will, behind my back, about me about some action, some story that had been created. And here was somebody who stopped it. That was a clear action. That was definitely someone being an ally and supporting me in that time. And in that space, that also freed me because it helped, again, not just to have. I was so thankful for that person intervening, but it also I felt like I shrunk within myself when I first heard I was like, what do you mean? There’s these stories or this thing had been said about me and people are perpetuating it and repeating them over and over. Again. And so I just shrunk with it myself, and I think that’s something that actually was discussed in one of the earlier podcasts. Right and. So I felt this shame for something I hadn’t even done. But I had this huge amount of shame, and now, having heard somebody else defend me, helped me to kind of let go of that and realize it wasn’t even about me. I shouldn’t be ashamed of something I did not even do, and to have then compassion for that person who shrunk right and say, OK, well, now that I. I know about that. I actually could. Almost move forward if you will and actually have create a safer space for myself and say OK, no, I can reclaim my own space. I can be confident in this space because. I’m OK somebody else also has my back and it helps me regain my voice. It helped me regain my confidence and also gave me compassion for myself.


Ilyas
And I know that’s been in different spaces called different things like it’s been called like fierce compassion to be able to stand up for someone and, like, take on A cause or to defend someone you care about who’s close to you. It’s also been something that I mean for for men, for kind of men who hold more traditional beliefs. Is something that fits in with that kind of like framework too. Like if there’s someone you you know and you care about and who’s near to you and you you have the chance to stand up for them, that’s something worthwhile and something worth doing. And I know in the the first episode of this podcast we talked about masculinity as a fire and how that fire needs to be used to like to warm those who. You love and who you’re close to. And then like you can use it to be able to like defend. Like from. Arm I guess. And. So as you’re saying that, yeah.


Lucrezia
Absolutely. And I think that, you know, we can talk about it and like you said, the sometimes the language that gets used, I love that reference. I love the visual of that and think of it as a fire that can that can burn bright, but it could also warm. Right. And extend and I think that that’s something that when you’re a a man or you’re in a position of power or in some way you can influence someone positively. I mean that could have such a significant impact on those immediately around you. So one-on-one, right, like that particular person did with me right at that moment also that person was actually a leader of people and that showed that his leadership team, that that’s what leadership looks like, that’s what I. The standard I hold myself to that would be the standard I hold those around me. So that just it rolls and it multiplies so that also. Then when I look at it as somebody who’s fire burned or burns right. Who has a lot of agency? Quite a lot of power, quite a lot of privilege that could be used to extend to others, right. So I love that that imagery of using that fire to warm others.


Ilyas
Yeah, and I think. I mean to avoid reifying kind of masculinity in and of itself, I think the other example that you talked about is, like, very strong, too, right? Like it’s not. It’s being able to be there and hold space for someone which we don’t need to use kind of like necessarily labels of like masculine or feminine or whatever else. But it’s just like. Different ways that people. Men in this case, or whomever else, can hold space or be there for for someone who’s close to them. And I think that that is the basis of forming a community. And with that in mind like. What what aspects of like being a man do you think are are helpful for making changes in in this space in particular so with like? The the different kinds of men I know it’s a big question and there isn’t kind of one type of men or one type of way of being manly or have of having manhood, but what do you think are some ways in which men can use their either masculine or themselves to to be able to affect change? In this space.


Lucrezia
Right. Well, actually, when we first started, when you and I first started talking about this and even this podcast, to be quite honest, is I was and felt that I felt qualified to answer that question because I thought, well, I am a woman, I identify as a woman and. I know it it from what I feel my lived experience is and that was one of the reasons why I was so supportive and really enthusiastic about having this podcast series because I wanted to learn from others. And that’s why I actually referred back to people who know even better than I do, right, and whether it’s live, lived experience from men themselves, whether it’s experts that are looking in this space and researching this space, one thing that really struck me, for example, was the episode that you recorded with. Doctor Jeffrey and the conversation around consent and how we talk about consent and how we teach consent to me, that was. That was significant. That was impactful, right? So it was understanding, you know, one of the things that that she said was that there is so much nuance to consent, right? And that the way we’re teaching it is sometimes maybe we can teach it in a better way, right. Because there’s a lot of things that we understand. Nuance, but somehow that seems to get lost in the conversation around consent. So when you ask about men and how they can respond, again, that’s nuance. I think that from what I’ve seen and what I’ve learned and what I’ve researched and again from my own lived experience, is that there is no one right answer. And that I would think that the first question like it you know, we went back to, I almost feel like I’m repeating myself but to. Give space. First of all, to be open to the fact that. Gender based violence happens. We also want to make sure that we’re also holding space for, you know, we talk a lot about gender based violence and we talk a lot about violence against women and girls. But let us not forget that gender based violence actually impacts all genders. So let us not assume that when we’re talking that this only impacts women and girls, right? And so first, there’s that. It’s those small things. It’s hold space for that, that it can happen to anyone. Then it’s about if somebody does. You know, we’ve heard everything. You see something say something. It doesn’t have to be big. It can just be like something small like here’s an example. This happened on the subway, actually a couple of years ago is. A young woman was. Being verbally attacked. On the subway, a beautiful young woman who obviously was getting quite a bit of attention. From another person on the subway. And. You can tell that she was getting very uncomfortable. She wasn’t engaging, she was trying to ignore the person, and she had a book out and she just kept reading her book and trying to ignore that person. But that person kept getting louder and louder and louder. There was a lot of people on that subway that could have intervened. And at one point. All that somebody did. Another a young man who was standing there. He didn’t say a word. All he did was he stood up, he shifted and he blocked that individual who was yelling and trying to yell things and get her attention. He stood in front of the young woman as the two other of his friends. So they formed a physical barrier without touching anyone. They just shifted position and blocked that individuals view. That young girl now was. She had a block. She had three people standing between her and that other person. Eventually that person just stopped talking and he got off the train. They didn’t have to say anything. They didn’t do any. What they did was a small act. They shifted over 2 feet and formed the physical barrier between her and the person who was yelling at her. We don’t know if that person would have escalated. I’m glad it didn’t. But I know I saw her look up and she thanked them. So it was. It was a small thing to do. And it was incredibly gratifying to see and.


Ilyas
Yeah. And like you mentioned before, like the small things aren’t. Really, that small at the end of the day. Because that could have been something a lot bigger it could have. Been something that kind of turned into something else and. Even if it was. Just the way that it was for a longer period of time and no one stood up. That’s a reference point that that young woman now. As or would have had about, like her safety in the world.


Lucrezia
Exactly. And I mean, that’s one thing is they never want anyone to put themselves in danger. But seeing that it also was a lesson to me and saying, well, I could do. That as well. Right. So I can stand up. I don’t have to say anything, but I can stand in front. I can stand in solidarity. With her. I could help stand in front and try to create a physical barrier. I’m not a large person, but it’s still a space, right? So absolutely. It’s even small acts of compassion and small acts of empathy and of community.


Ilyas
Yeah. And I do think all those go together. UM. I do think that if if you can kind of get in touch with that inner sense of like emotionality and compassion, that amazing things can happen. And I know I’ve learned through this, this series the different ways in which. Like men in particular can play a role. In using another masculinity or kind of other parts of themselves. To to make a difference and. I think it’s also important to recognize that like. Like you said before, there isn’t just one way of doing things. It’s not that you need to start a fight with someone or start a confrontation or. Do something that, like, escalates things, cause in the end that is kind of like reinforcing patterns sometimes of like. Types of masculinities that can cause harm and with the the. The overarching theme of this kind of podcast of trying to find ways in which men can express themselves. Through like the lens of being able to have, like a healthy sense of self and a way that’s helpful for themselves and their communities. I think it has become ever more important to recognize that like. Men. Can affect other men and the others. The other people around them, the other genders, whomever else. But specifically like with our interactions with like other men, like, there’s a big role that we can play in changing the scripts. And changing the expectations. And changing our own kind of processing of the world so that we can hold that space, we can have that compassion. We can show those emotions, we can have that kind of emotional integrity. To be able to connect to ourselves and those around us. And at the end of the day, help out the people who need help, because I think that is a very human thing to want to do is to want to be of service or want to help. But. I know me entering into this space. I didn’t know what that meant. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t. You know, even like how to do it and I have a background in kind of social work, the social services, all that sort of stuff and the fact that I wasn’t entirely sure of what to do. I mean, I think speaks volumes to what can be expected of kind of the the average man who hasn’t kind of gone through the same sort of schooling or. Education or kind of work that I’ve done, and so hopefully with this podcast, we can really emphasize that like all men can play a role and the more men that can kind of influence each other. The more we can kind of reach a critical mass, where? There. What it is to be a man? Whether you kind of accept that kind of binary or spectrum or however you want to frame it, what it is for someone to identify as a man doesn’t have to be. I identified as like. In problematic ways, or in ways that can can hurt and that people can really use their identity. To help and to create good and to create connections and to create compassion and to. Find within themselves. The space to hold others in their core as well.


Lucrezia
Absolutely. I think that was very well said.


Ilyas
Thank you. Yeah, this has been an incredible learning journey. I thank you so much for facilitating this. I mean, this kind of whole thing happening and something the listeners probably don’t know is that there was a different iteration of this podcast that we had been looking into where it would be a bit more kind of like a survivors’s journey through the system. And I’d be interviewing people on that lens and. You and I had a conversation, and we really came to the decision that like it wasn’t something I necessarily felt comfortable with and you wanted it to be. You wanted this podcast to be something that we could take and. Use as something good and if I didn’t feel that I was comfortable bringing that forward that like it wasn’t necessarily the right place to go and so. Being able to have this podcast and the iteration that it is. Is in large part to due to your kind of like come compassion and understanding and changing routes from that initial kind of. Framework that we had.


Lucrezia
Absolutely. Well, I realized that as we were talking, as you said, the whole point was really to understand how could we do good, how can we help support? And realizing that this was one way to even demonstrate and go and bring something into the world, that’s saying, you know, I thought there was huge power in that. First of all, that you came to me and said, you know, this is not, I don’t feel comfortable in this path. I have certain questions of my own and then realizing. How powerful that was. Because it’s really important and like you said, if someone comes with it with your level of experience and your level also of training and saying if you’re not even sure how to locate yourself within this space, how to be that kind of ally, how to support survivors, how then to be that larger voice for good? Well, then, it almost felt like a responsibility at that point saying absolutely, let’s look at this from a different perspective and this is what we need to bring to the world right now. And it’s really important that we bring. People together and we have these conversations because like I said, we can’t solve an issue that is so multi layered and so complex if we don’t have a larger conversation. If we don’t bring more and more people to the table, if we just keep this isolated in academia, or we just keep it isolated in the criminal justice system, or we keep it isolated in social work, or we keep it isolated in, you know, counseling and therapeutic responses. It has to be all of those things, and all of those people and all of us, and I include all of us saying everyone, we’re all part of our society. We’re all part of our communities, is that, you know, my goal is really to try to have a positive impact in the world at that individual level. So. Any single person who wants to seek out support and doesn’t know where to go. And doesn’t know where that first point of contact is or afraid of having lost their voice. I want to be there for that. I also want to be there to have an impact on the organizations that are there and give them tools to be able to adequately and comprehensively respond to disclosures of sexual assault. Right. And I think that that’s the only way that then we can make a larger impact on society. And that’s how we then start addressing rape culture. Right is if we do it just one person, one organization, one community at a time, but then that can snowball and grow.


Ilyas
Yeah, I think that. The fact that we’ve had these conversations and that we’ve been able to. To start something like this, at the very least, a conversation or two, it shows the power of just kind of talking and being able to be open and being able to form community and being able to form connections. And and not all men will have the the same kind of access to to the guests that we’ve had on this show is as I have. But I think one big take away I’ve had from pretty much all the guests that I’ve talked to is that. Being able to have these conversations with the other men in your life is. Important. And it will make a difference. And especially have her after having listened to, like, hopefully these five episodes. They they’ll have a better understanding of like what it is to be a man within this space and how they can use that to to really. Warm those around them.


Lucrezia
Mm-hmm. And if there’s one thing I would actually leave. People to ponder and think about is that sometimes I still find myself in spaces where people question the pervasiveness of gender based violence, and specifically men more than women. And I’ve been in spaces now where people like it can’t be. It can’t. Be everywhere. It can’t be that and their answer is always similar to what one of my friends had said to me. Well, I don’t know anyone. So it can’t be and I actually push back and I say to them. Ask your wife, Sister, mother, cousin, friend. Just ask them. Because just because they didn’t come to you or just because they didn’t come and disclose it to you, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. So even that small question is hey has something like this ever happened to you? And say. If it ever has, or if it ever does, no, you can come talk to me and I’m here to listen. That would be huge.


Ilyas
Yeah, and. I think that’s a great place to leave it off. So. Thank you so much for for talking with me today and talking with everyone who’s listening and. Yeah. We really appreciate everything that you brought to the conversation that you brought to the world and that you’ve kind of facilitated in this this whole series.


Lucrezia
Thank you so much. It’s been great.

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