Ilyas

Awesome. Well, welcome back to “YES, ALL MEN!” Today’s guest is Doctor Christopher Dietzel. And Chris, can you introduce yourself?

Dr. Deitzel

Yes. So hello. Thank you so much for having me today. My name is Doctor Christopher Dietzel, and you can call me Chris and I use he/him pronouns. I am a postdoctoral fellow at Concordia University, in the DIGS Lab, which is the digital intimacies, gender and sexualities lab. And I also do projects with DIY digital safety DIY standing for digitally informed youth, digital safety. And my research I’m really interested in understanding the intersections between gender, sexuality, safety, health and technology. So I’m primarily interested in how people use things like social media and dating apps and how people stay safe online and in person.

Ilyas

Yeah, I’ve been reading through some of your literature and it’s really fascinating. And so maybe to frame the conversation, can you explain a little bit about what technology facilitated sexual violence is and how it’s different than it’s kind of in person counterpart?

Dr. Deitzel

Yeah. So as I mentioned, I’m a Co-investigator on the DIY Digital safety grant and we’re really interested in understanding technology facilitated sexual violence among youth in Canada. So our project is looking at those who are aged 13 to 18 and we’re focusing right now on five different areas of the country, Nova Scotia. Ontario, Quebec, Alberta and Yukon and in this project we are interested in technology facilitated sexual violence. So obviously that’s kind of a mouthful of a term. It’s not something that you hear every day, but technology facilitated sexual violence. What that essentially means is sexual violence. So thinking about harassment, harms could be sexual aggression. This could be sexual assault. But thinking about the different types of violence that people experience in a sexual manner that is facilitated by technology. So what that means is how digital technologies like devices like smartphones, computers, laptops, etc. As well as other digital devices like GPS, smart technologies and other technologies. How those make sexual violence easier or how it makes that, how it exacerbates people’s experiences of sexual violence.

Ilyas

Yeah, I think. The way that you frame that is really important too, because it’s not just with like. The the direct interactions right because you mentioned GPS there as well and that is part of the technology facilitated sexual violence cause that creates a whole new realm of like tracking and all of these other things that go into it. Right, 

Dr. Deitzel

Exactly. So when we’re thinking about how technology has really been integrated into our everyday lives. You know, and when we when we think about these types of things, we often think about like how smartphones we can take pictures all the time or take videos or like share our location. And of course that adds a level of convenience in terms of how we connect with one another and how we can use different platforms and apps and things. But then it also means that people can take advantage of that. You know, if they manipulate those systems or if they use those systems to exert control, coercion or certainly harm or violence on other people. So GPS is an example of that. You know, if we’re taking the idea of stalking, for example. Before smartphones, before you could share your location, you know stalking wasn’t. How we stalked in the past is now how we would stock today because it’s a lot easier if somebody does share the location. If somebody’s posting updates about where they are, if they’re traveling, if there’s, you know, having like a status update, there’s many different ways now that you could both stalk somebody online as well as stalk somebody in person because of technology and the affordances that are granted through technology.

Ilyas

Yeah, that’s such an amazing point and things to look out for and we’ll we’ll touch on that a little bit later in the conversation. But I want to really focus in on gay and queer populations because that’s the topic for today. So what makes gain queer populations unique when it comes to technology, facilitated sexual violence or TFSV.

Dr. Deitzel

Right. Yeah. So we’ll definitely, let’s use the the acronym TFSV for technology facilitating sexual violence, so. As I mentioned before, TFSV in response to your previous question, you know it’s it’s what makes TFSV different from in person forms of sexual violence is that it’s easy to create and manipulate. It’s fast and easy to to essentially use devices, so this impacts all people. It’s not just queer and like gay and queer populations who are impacted by TFSV, but because of their identities. That being gender or sexuality, people who might be already victimized because of their identities can then become increased targets because technology makes this type of violence easier. So in that sense, as I said before, the F in TFSV stands for facilitating. Queer and gay populations as well as other marginalized populations, can be higher risk for experiencing TFSV. So there’s been a few reports about this. Stats Canada, for example, Statistics Canada. They had put out a report recently where they looked at rates of cyber victimization among people of different genders, and they found that non binary youth in Canada reported a higher risk of experiencing cyber victimization in other people. Other reports have found that trans people in particular report serious harm. Such as like trolling, hateful messages, cyber stalking through their use of technology. And certainly I can get more into statistics if you’re interested in hearing about that, but because of people’s marginalized genders, sexual orientations, and then certainly other aspects of their identity as well, such as race, ethnicity, indigeneity, ability, class, all of these types of things can factor into the marginalization. And then in terms of TFSV, the victimization that they experience, so it’s in these ways that gender, sexual orientation and other aspects of somebody’s identity can have compounding impacts in terms of how gay, queer, and LGBTQ+ people in general experience.

Ilyas

Mm-hmm. And maybe you can send us some of those literature pieces and we can kind of share them afterwards, along with the episode. And I I think what you really touched on there is like the idea of intersectionality, right. Like someone’s social location being like, where all of their identities meet? Right. Yeah. And so I know you’ve done a lot of research specifically.

Dr. Deitzel

Yeah, yeah.

Ilyas

On men who have sex with men, so can you talk a little bit about that specific social location?

Dr. Deitzel

Yeah. Yeah. So for those who aren’t familiar with the word intersectionality because it’s great that you use that, that essentially means this is how different aspects of people’s identity cannot be separated from other aspects of their identity. So even though I might identify as a man, there’s other aspects of my identity that come into factor. That also influenced, as you said, your social location. So then when we think about MSM, so men who have sex with men, MSM, when we think about their experiences in terms of their social location. So because they have a male identity, they’re afforded certain privileges and opportunities in life that people of minority genders. Or marginalized genders, such as women, non binary folks, etc. Men have more power and privilege in society than other people, so that is granted to MSM. However, MSM also identify, of course, as sexual with their sexual orientation. They identify as minority since they’re not straight. And so in that sense they can also experience marginalization because of their sexual orientation. So this is a perfect example of how intersectionality it’s important to take intersectionality into consideration, because with MSM on one hand they have power and privilege because they’re men, but on the other hand, they can be marginalized and victimized because of their sexual orientation.

Ilyas

Yeah. And I know that this plays a big role in kind of how rape culture plays out as well, right. And we, we’ve kind of explained rape culture in some of our posts and in some of our previous previous discussions. But can you, I know you’ve done some research on how rape culture kind of manifests, especially in like dating apps and and. And its form of technology facilitated sexual violence among kind of especially men who have sex with men on in that sort of platform. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Dr. Deitzel

Yeah. So it’s a good question. And just to clarify for those who are listening today, rape culture is a term that’s used to refer to how sexual violence has been ingrained more so in society. So instead of just thinking about incidents or individual experiences of sexual violence, rape culture looks at how systems and institutions within society have normalized, condone, perpetuated and overlooked individual experiences to which then experiences of sexual violence. The, how we think of sexual violence has been normalized. So in response to this question, then when we’re thinking about the experiences of MSM and other LGBTQ plus people, rape culture can kind of come about in a few different ways. First, as I kind of mentioned before, when thinking about MSM specifically. They might not necessarily be targets within a rape culture, because rape culture tends to target women or others because of their gender identity. But because MSM have power and privilege as men within society, they can be implicated within a rape culture, even if they may not necessarily be impacted by it. That said, there’s not a ton of literature that has really looked into how MSM can experience rape culture kind of in a non heteronormative way. So if we’re thinking outside of this frame of women are the ones who experience sexual violence, then of course we know that MSM can experience sexual violence as well. And so this is where my research has come in to kind of experience to to investigate how MSM and other queer populations can experience sexual violence more systematically, systemically. Excuse me more systemically. In ways that goes beyond individual experiences. And so kind of as I talked before, one way in which rape culture can manifest is certainly through people’s use of technologies. So again, thinking about TFSV and I did a study about this where people talked about their online and offline experiences and shared incidents that had happened to them through technology. Another way that rape culture can manifest, particularly among MSM and LGBT less people, is in terms of feeling societal pressures to have sex. Certainly MSM gay men. They tend to be overly sexualized, and there’s a big emphasis on sexuality, and understandably so. But then what it means is that these individuals might feel pressure to have sex. They might think they always need to have sex. And so in that sense they might not. It it can be difficult for individuals then to differentiate what is consensual sex and what is non consensual sex. It can be difficult for them to identify themselves as victims or to identify if an incident of TFSV has occurred because. Of how highly sexualized their experiences are and might be normalized, and so there’s been research that has shown that MSM, gay men and other queer populations don’t always see themselves as victims precisely because of these discourses and understandings of what rape culture is, or who tends to be kind of the pictured idea of of a victim of sexual violence.

Ilyas

There’s a couple things that I really like to dig into. The idea that like that.

Dr. Deitzel

OK.

Ilyas

So and I know in society men are kind of seen as like the sexual pursuers, right? And and like heterosexual relationships, the woman is seen as the gatekeeper. And so in, like, gay relationships like that, that dynamic is very different. Right. And that’s something that you you’ve touched on in your literature and like terms of. Like that, how that gets expressed is different and so that I could see how that could tie into many kind of instances of sexual violence being unacknowledged, because if someone sees themselves as like someone who is pursuing sex actively and who like in the kind of myth of masculinity, can never be like satiated like, there’s there’s a hard time to accept that there might have been something non consensual happening happening there, right?

Dr. Deitzel

Exactly. And so on one hand, you know, there’s great opportunities for MSM gay men, queer populations to define their own consent practices. You know, they don’t necessarily have to follow this gatekeeper model that you’re referring to in terms of, like, a heterosexual man pursuing a heterosexual woman. So there’s a lot more fluidity, and in some senses liberation for queer populations to play with consent negotiation. And to to kind of free themselves with these constraints of of heteronormativity at the same time, however, that that complicates things because the scripts that people follow in a heterosexual sexual relationship, where the man pursues a woman that’s not necessarily the case when you have two men, two women, queer people in general. So on one hand, it it can be very liberating, very freeing. But on the other hand, it can also complicate things if you don’t necessarily know who’s supposed to do what, what counts as consent, what doesn’t count as consent. And then, of course, when technology comes into play that can complicate things further as you’re sharing photos back and forth, talking about what you want to do in person. And of course using technology to facilitate those interactions.

Ilyas

Yeah. And I know you talked about in your research how especially like Grindr like the dating app is a very like people see it as a sexualized space. So like the the idea of like sending pictures and receiving pictures like it, it gets murky there in terms of like where where the consent lies like is it implicit, is it explicit? And like all of those sorts of dynamics come into play too right.

Dr. Deitzel

Exactly. And so when thinking using Grindr as an example, because the way the app works is different than Tinder and so excuse me audience, I’m just going to explain this slightly in case you’re unfamiliar with how Grindr works, but Tinder, when you open the app and you swipe left and right and when you swipe left, you’re indicating no, you’re uninterested. And when you swipe right, you indicate you’re interested. If both people swipe right, then you can then it opens up a conversation and you can chat. Grindr is not that case. Grindr is a grid and so when you open the app you see the first I believe it’s 200 people who are in close proximity to you, so this is again where GPS comes into play. So that as you’re moving around the city or as you’re moving around the world, your grid will change based on who is in proximity to you. Of course there’s different filters that you can apply, so you can choose like age. You can choose. Well, there’s a bunch of different ones, but anyway, more or less you can have access. You can start a conversation with anybody around you. Not everybody has a face profile. There’s blank profiles or people will put different images up, but nonetheless you automatically have direct access to everybody in proximity. And So what this means then is you can immediately send a message to anybody. And since Grindr tends to be a more anonymized space compared to Tinder, where you have your name and photos of yourself. Grindr. You can really put whatever information or no information at all if you so decide. And so as people then are starting chats with another individual, they don’t have to have the consent of the individual in order to start that chat. And then they can share or send whatever they want immediately. Of course, this is doesn’t always mean that it’s going to be a problematic interaction, but what it means is then coming back to this question of consent and sexual violence is. Is every interaction always consensual? Does the person who’s initiating the the conversation have the consent of the person who’s receiving that invitation? And then, of course, as you go through the chat, you know, have you checked in to see does the person want to receive photos? Do they want to have a sexual conversation? The other thing with Grinder, and this goes back to my previous point in terms of the highly sexualized nature of the queer community is grinder tends to be that a highly sexualized space as well. So what people will do is they assume that everybody who’s there is are for sexual. Purposes. And so they’re again because of the culture of the space, because of the norms of the people who use that space, there are assumptions made about the consent of other individuals. So yeah, that was a that’s a long answer. I’ve definitely written about this a lot. There’s a paper that I recently published called Clickable Consent, where I specifically talked about that where some people. When when they connect to Grindr, they think about consent as connecting to the app, so they. When they log in, they see themselves as and others as consenting to everything happens in that space versus other people who will think about consent is continuous, and so they have to check in with other people, either through explicit or implicit means. So explicit being like would you like to share a photo? Can I see your face? Would you like this, that and the other thing. An implicit being more behavioral cues and contextual cues.

Ilyas

Yeah. And I think it it leads into a a discussion around like. Digital consent versus in person consent too, right? Because in in terms of like being able to set something up like there’s the idea of like, do you do people go through consent before and there’s like a a series of expectations or is there that continuous expectation of consent is there like? Like a difference between like setting something up and then like actually enacting it. And I know you’ve written a lot about that and like the complexities around it as well.

Dr. Deitzel

Right. And so that’s the other thing is when we even transition off of online interactions to in person interactions, then that can complicate things further. So if somebody says, yes, you know, if you’re you’re arranging a meet up to go and have sex with somebody, you know, if you’re talking about what you would like to do and then you actually meet in person, some people see that online conversation as as a very explicit, and not explicit sexually, but explicit in terms of like binding conversation. So there were some folks that I had talked to, one had referred to this as like a contractual form of consent or that whatever you discuss online has to happen inerson and so if some people apply that to their in person sexual interactions, then they won’t reassess or renegotiate consent once they meet in person, they’ll immediately start with this sexual interaction without verifying anything further. Other people, however, might think about consent from online to in person as a double consent. Or they renegotiate things. So even if they said yes to stuff online, they’re gonna have to say yes to things in person. Another form of that could then be thinking about. Like a like a tacit consent is the word that I use where you would not. You kind of take things for granted, essentially is what it means so. Where things are a bit more blurry and you might renegotiate some things, but you might not renegotiate other things.

Ilyas

Yeah. And I imagine the the roles here and like the. The difference in scripts or the re the recreation of scripts is really an interesting piece of it as well, right? Because that tacit consent like especially in like a like hyper sexualized population or one that like has this expectation put on it from either themselves or the people around them or. Whatever the kind of like structural pieces versus individual pieces are like, that idea of like negotiating consent in that space versus like with active versus kind of tacit consent, especially like in person or that idea of renegotiating like it can become like. Complicated from from what I understand right.

Dr. Deitzel

Exactly. And So what what can be complicated with this is not only going from offline or online to offline, but also the fact that you don’t necessarily know which paradigm other people are operating in, like I might be operating with contractual consent and you might be operating with a tacit consent. And so then this can create problems where if somebody is applying one understanding of consent to their experience and somebody has another understanding of consent. This is then where problems can happen because if I don’t think it’s necessary to check in once we’ve discussed everything online, but you feel that for your own safety or health or whatever the case may be, comfort, you know, if you want to check in, then this is where I don’t necessarily perceive what I’m doing as sexually violent. But the person could be experiencing it as sexual violence. And so this is where conversations about consent and checking in and communicating and having this mutual understanding among partners is very, very important because even. Even as we’re using technology to connect with one another, it doesn’t always necessarily mean that we have a shared understanding of the same experience.

Ilyas

And so when that when that comes into play that that leads to kind of a very complex interaction. So how can someone like make sure that they’re staying safe when using technology when engaging in these spaces or when kind of like being able to have these sorts of interactions both like online and offline? So that they can make sure that, like the people, everyone’s on the same page and that things stay kind of… Safe

Dr. Deitzel

So yeah. So of course that’s that’s the goal, right? We want people to stay safe and be happy and be comfortable in their experiences. So first and foremost is talk about it. You know, like, if if you’re unsure, you can ask the question, you can share your experience, say where you’re coming from. You can talk about why you’re feeling this way and what you hope to get out of it. That might seem a bit kind of basic in terms of advice, but honestly that can go a long way because if you’re able to clarify this with the other person that you’re meeting up with or the other people, then it it it can really save a lot of problems. So yeah, what I would also recommend is you know, as you’re interacting with somebody, don’t feel like you need to rush into things. You should trust your gut. You should know what your boundaries are. So if you don’t feel comfortable meeting up immediately or if you only feel comfortable meeting up in certain places or in a certain time, whatever the case may be, you know, trust. Know what makes you comfortable and safe, and then follow that and apply that to your experience. As we’ve talked about before, you know how technology can come into play is very important as well. So be aware of the information that you’re sharing, be aware of. I I I don’t, I I hesitate to say some of this because I don’t want to paint this idea of like stranger danger that every person’s going to be terrible. But you know, once you put your information out there, it is out there. So if if you have concerns, you know, don’t don’t feel like you need to rush into things, don’t feel like you need to share stuff. You can also of course use technology to your benefit so you can message friends, you can share your location with people that you trust. You can use video chat or voice messaging features in order to assess how comfortable you feel with someone before you meet in person. Of course, if you have any type of concern, you could use a block or a report feature which is inherent to many of these applications. What you should also do is like you can recognize that there’s that, perhaps by using different apps they can give you different affordances. So like some of these apps for like Tinder for example, you can’t share images, but if you want to share images or voice messages you could go to another app. But of course then keep in mind if your app jumping if you’re moving from one platform to another. You’re giving them more. Information. So a thing to be aware of as well is the context that you’re in. So like if you meet in person, don’t necessarily rely on the other person for transportation. If you’re going to like a bar or a cafe, you could talk to somebody there so that you even have support in person. If you, you know, you can just let the the bartender. You know, like, hey, I’m here on a date. Maybe check in with me after a bit. There’s also a verification tools within the apps themselves if you wanna kind of assess somebody. But I want to emphasize that, you know, like verification on on Tinder or Twitter or now X and other platforms you know, in order to receive that check mark, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the person is trustworthy. It just means that their image reflects who they are. And so although verification can be a helpful part of the process, it’s certainly not. The best assessment, or the only assessment in terms of how to evaluate whether someone is trustworthy or safe, so just keep that in mind as well. Yeah, I think those would be some of the general tips and suggestions that I would have. Of course, if if there’s folks who are interested in learning more, our DIY digital safety project, we have some resources available on our website. So I certainly encourage you to check that out. And then as we continue in this podcast, I actually have a few other suggestions of places people can go. If they’d like to learn more about other organizations and resources available to them. 

Ilyas

Yeah, if you want to share those now I’m. I’m open to it. 

Dr. Deitzel

Sure. Be happy to. Yeah. So, as I mentioned, for DIY and digital safety, we have infographics. We have fact sheets. We have public reports. These are available. We have these on a bunch of different topics about like knowing your rights, sharing nudes, legal information and. And some of our infographics are available in like 13 languages, including Indigenous languages. We’re really trying to make sure that this information is accessible. People in terms of like technology related safety issues, there’s Tech Safety Canada. There’s also stopncii.org. So NCI being the non consensual intimate images. So that’s a great organization that provides help to to folks looking for that. There’s also a digital first aid kit. So if you go to digitalfirstaid.org, they can give you information about how to deal with some of these problems. For kids, if folks are under 18, there’s organizations like Project Arachnid, there’s Media Smarts, which is kind of oriented towards kids, parents and teachers. And then there’s Take It Down, which is from the National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children. So those are all resources related to technology. Of course, if somebody’s experienced sexual violence or harassment. There’s the National Sexual Violence Resource Centre, and there’s also one called Right To Be, which is available around the world, and they have a bunch of different resources as well. If you’re looking for mental health support, there’s Wellness Together Canada that provides free resources for people in, like in terms of talking and other services. There’s also 988 Canada. So if you or someone you know isn’t experiencing an is experiencing an immediate crisis or suicide related concerns. You can always contact 988. And then, since we’ve been talking about MSM, queer people, LGBTQ plus folks, I just want to share a couple of identity specific resources as well. So one, there’s the LGBTQ digital safety guide from GLAAD. So this is information about how to use different platforms online and ways to stay safe. If you identify as LGBTQ+. There’s also the LGBT National Help Centre. Interline is another organization you can go to as well. There’s also the trans lifeline. So again, in the same way that 988 or Wellness can together, Canada provides free counseling support. There’s also the trans lifeline that is specifically available to trans, non binary and gender diverse people. And then for folks who identify as First Nations and are into it, there’s also the Hope for Wellness helpline, which is free and available to those populations as well.

Ilyas

Thank you. That’s a. That’s a big list. And if you send it to us afterwards, we can. We can post it as well so that people don’t have to, don’t have to memorize it. But I while you were while you were sharing those like there was a a consistent theme that came up to me at least in some of the the overarching kind of pieces of the technology facilitate sexual violence which is. The idea of non consensual intimate image sharing and so when we’re talking about technology, facilitated sexual violence. That’s a big one that comes into like the news fairly often. There’s been the, like, the laws that have been passed so that people can get like some sort of compensation for if someone has done this to them and there’s a lot more kind of protection for people nowadays. So I’m wondering if you can speak specifically about that and and maybe like what can be done if someone experiences something like that or how how maybe kind of structural factor might play into it.

Dr. Deitzel

Sure. So yeah, so and you’re kind of alluding to this. So yeah, so the non consensual intimate images and if we’re thinking about technology facilitated sexual violence. So NCII are then TFSV and for thinking about these issues a bit more broadly, this is kind of been in the news recently where there’s been cases in Canada. From fall of 2023, where there were young women or young people who had been targeted at schools, there was a case of somebody. Who had died by suicide because of sextortion. So this is a problem that’s impacting young people and not just young people. This is also impacting folks who are adults and folks who are celebrities. So with with artificial intelligence or AI, there was, there’s been big concerns around, like deep fakes and nudes that have been shared. So recently there was Taylor Swift, where they’re they had created manipulated images of her sexual images of her that were widely circulated on social media and online. And so. You know, all of this plays into we’re seeing. We’re seeing TFSV becoming a bigger and bigger problem because of people’s access to technology and the way in which they can manipulate images, share images and certainly not receive the consent of the people who would be implicated in these in in these incidents. So if you or somebody you know of has experienced TFSV. As I mentioned, there are all of these resources that are available to you. What you can also do, of course, is you can report on the platform. Many, many websites and apps nowadays have an ability to report. Of course, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the person. It doesn’t necessarily hold the person to accountability. It just means that the image or the content will be removed so you can report on a platform you can block somebody on the platform if you know someone. If you know the person who’s done it, you can also ask the platform to remove the content. Google, for example, what you can actually do is you can write to them and you can ask for them to remove images from their search results. The thing with all of this is when you’re relying on a company and international big companies, I can’t promise that this they’ll respond to your concerns immediately, but nonetheless it’s it’s an important step to take. So that content isn’t shared further if you know the person who has done it, you could contact them and ask them to remove it. But of course, if you’re already being victimized, that’s probably not the best thing. For every individual. Some sites actually offer this option, called a hash. So what you can do is you can have your intimate images essentially tagged so that it’s so that it shows that you are the owner of the images. It doesn’t help if something has already been shared, but if you’re looking for an extra layer of protection in a proactive way. You can look into hashing an image and there’s more information about that online. I’m I’m not a legal expert, nor am I a lawyer, so I’m gonna offer a few other suggestions. But please, I say this with, with the caveat to know that this is not legal advice. This is just some general information about the resources available to you. So one is here in Canada, it’s actually against the law to share or threatened to share some of these images without their consent, and it’s built into the Criminal Code of Canada. So if you’re looking to like to to file a legal case against someone, there are aspects through the Criminal Code of Canada that you could pursue. There’s also civil law that’s available so many provinces actually have an intimate images protection act that is available in BC, British Columbia, just to actually implement is the latest province to implement one where they just put this into effect at the end of January 2024. So in Nova Scotia, they have a resource called Cyber Scan. There’s the Canadian Centre for Child Protection in Manitoba and there’s the Civil Resolution Tribunal and BC. So again, there’s different resources based on the jurisdiction, the province or territory, but many of them do have an intimate images protection act that people can use. Lastly, I would just like to say in addition to thinking about like the platforms or legal directions that you can take in order to address experiences of TFSV is seek help from friends, family, talk to peers, talk to members of your community. Know that there are other people who can help you when you need help and support, and know that you’re not alone. It’s really important to understand that there’s there’s other, it’s. Perhaps not good to know, but it it can add an aspect of solidarity to know there’s other people who have experienced this too. So don’t be afraid to to seek out help. Take care of your mental health. Take care of your physical health, and then you can also go to sexual assault centres and other local community organizations who provide support as well.

Ilyas

Thank you that that will help a ton of people, I’m sure. And to bring it to the kind of overarching theme of this podcast because we’re we’re really exploring masculinity and how how that kind of intersects with, with sexual violence in many different ways and so. What what do you think the role is in all of this space, so whether it’s men who have sex with men, whether it’s technology, facilitated violence, whether it’s like intimate image sharing, like, how do you think that masculinity intersects with this in general? And that that’s a really big question. Maybe I can kind of hammer down a little bit because it’s it’s. It seems like men are are implicated in like a majority of the like cases of sexual violence and so. When we’re looking at masculinity, there’s a lot of different types of masculinities and some are helpful. Some are hurtful and there’s like, all in everything in between. And so, like, what does it mean to be like masculine and try and like not engage in all of this stuff because there are certain like norms around masculinity, especially what they call in, like the literature, like hegemonic masculinity, that is really about like. Power and exploitation and all of these things and some of those have permeated into popular society in terms of like like if someone thinks of a man, they might say like James Bond, and they have, like, there are plenty of, like, womanizing aspects to that and kind of things that aren’t helpful and so. How? How is masculinity currently like interacting with these sorts of things? So whether it’s technology facilitated or in person sexual violence, and how, how, how do you frame it in terms of like your literature on kind of whether it’s consent or whether it’s interacting with rape culture that you can kind of like? Work against that, either in subtle or more explicit ways.

Dr. Deitzel

It’s a great question and you know that would certainly be you could have a whole another podcast episode about masculinity. So the the the first things that come to mind is, well, there’s a few things that I want to address. Is 1 and. And you noted this as well is that unfortunately in the research shows that men are most likely to be perpetrators. And there again, there’s there’s information from Statistics Canada that I can share with you as well as other sources that show that. Both in terms of female victims as well as in terms of male victims, it’s most likely for men to be a perpetrator. What we do know is that in terms of masculinities, then, there is this idea of of like power and control and influence and desire, where oftentimes an individual might put their own needs or their own wants ahead of other people. And so we can think about this as being selfish. You can think about this as mean mean. You know there’s different adjectives to to kind of characterize that, but nonetheless, this is where people have pushed back that they get against that. To understand that masculinity is not just about being dominating or being mean or inflicting harm on someone, there are healthy and positive forms of masculinity that still recognize the power and influence that men are afforded in society. But then find ways to which that to use that power and influence in more positive ways. So this is where, as you noted before, if we’re thinking about hegemonic masculinities that kind of takes this like normative, like more traditional approach to thinking about how men might influence and use their power and influence to to influence to create harm or discomfort or other things versus like positive forms of masculinities. Where like men can use that for good. And so this is where I when we’re thinking about, like queer populations. And this goes back to what we’re talking about with intersectionality is folks can then recognize that they sit at this intersection where they have both power and privilege as well as can be victimized or marginalized. And so it’s really up to the individual what they can do with that power. And then of course, use that as they see fit. So I I certainly encourage those who are listen to reflect and not just in terms of masculinities, but in terms of other systems and institutions and relation. And all those types of things is I I certainly encourage people to think about how they can use their social location for good and check in with other people so that they’re not perpetuating harms. And so they’re aware of both the intentional and unintentional hurts that might happen through their relationships.

Ilyas

Thank you. Yeah, I know it’s a big question to answer.

Dr. Deitzel

But it’s a good question. It’s a really good question.

Ilyas

So as we’re talking about men trying to find ways to use their masculinity. So you mentioned like the the power that comes along with like the position of being a man and like not necessarily like the power in terms of searching for dominance, but the power in terms of like being able to have like an effect on your on your life, on your world, on the people around you like. If you were to use like your your knowledge of like the scripts that are out there right now and let’s say you were to. To write something that would make it more helpful for for men to in terms of like a script that they could follow to be able to have like a positive effect. Like do you do you have an idea of what that would kind of look like, like either in broad strokes or more specifics?

Dr. Deitzel

Yeah, I think what I would suggest is. You know the this is a fantastic question because what we’re really seeing in society today and part of this is influenced by technology. Part of it is influenced by conversations about intersectionality. And there’s politics that come into play and all sorts of things. But we’re seeing where some men in society are feeling like they’re being targeted, as are being characterized solely as a perpetrator, or solely as someone who who facilitates harm, and so. I just I. I want to. We have to be aware that on one hand. These that might be true, like statistically, and that might be true in terms of like historically, but that doesn’t mean that every individual man is a bad person and it doesn’t mean that every individual man is a perpetrator. What this really? I just got a quick phone call. Sorry about that. So what this means is that. There is what we’re kind of seeing is this desire for maybe men are a bit lost where they don’t want to be characterized or misunderstood as somebody who’s like a bad person. And so in this sense, I think it’s really important to recognize that, you know, folks are are dynamic individuals that have good sides and bad sides and that it’s really up to individuals to to manage then those positive and negatives of their own personality and the sphere of influence that they can impart on other people. So In terms of how to kind of promote more positive masculinities, I would just really encourage men to kind of embrace that vulnerability. And I know that this can be like a very scary, difficult thing for people, especially when society tells men to be a certain. To act a certain way or be a certain thing, but I think it’s really important then to to to take a step back and and talk to people around you and kind of be a bit kind and patient with yourself as well so that you’re. Recognizing who you are as a, as a dynamic individual, and recognize that you can use your power and influence for good. And so you don’t have to succumb to these. You know these stereotypes that are placed upon men. I think there’s there’s a lot of opportunities to break that and to do good for yourself. And for others around you.

Ilyas

Thank you. I think that that’s an incredibly hopeful statement. I I am a man and I’ve been questioning that role for a long time in terms of like how it’s enacted and how it’s how it’s been put out there. And I I also have worked with people as a counselor where I I’ve like supported them and trying to figure out like what does a man mean to them? What does being a man mean to them? And there are a couple of things that you put on that you mentioned there that I think are really helpful. It’s like using your sphere of influence in a in a positive way because every everyone has some sort of like effect on the world, whether it’s like to like their family, whether it’s to their partner, whether it’s to a friend. Whether it’s like the person walking down the street. Yeah. And so like being able to recognize that, like, even if someone doesn’t feel like they’re part of, like, a bigger system, that they, their actions have an effect and they can have positive actions or they can kind of create more hurtful actions and it’s not always that kind of dichotomous, but there’s often times like this feeling of like people are helpless and don’t have an ability to make change and so. Like in in your literature, have you have you noticed how people might kind of push back against like rape culture? I know we talked about the ideas of like consent being like continuous and like being able to work on ways to not fall into technology facilitated sexual violence or in person, sexual violence, and so have you noticed any kind of like arising scripts that are like masculine in a way that’s like helpful in this space?

Dr. Deitzel

Yeah. So I mean there’s a, there’s a bunch of stuff that’s been published, certainly in academic literature, but you can also find this, you know, in terms of like publicly accessible videos or blogs or different things. Yeah, there’s these ideas of, like, positive masculinities where, you know, people don’t have to succumb to these hegemonic ideals or like these toxic ideals. And so there’s a specific term and it’s just keeping me at the moment, so maybe that’s something you I can follow up with you later. But yeah, there’s there’s certainly going to push towards that because you know, although men might be stereotyped or expected to act one way or do one thing, it’s that’s it’s not. We don’t want to pinhole men into those types of roles, and there’s certainly a lot of opportunities to break that and do good. So yeah, there’s a lot of stuff available online and certainly as we’re like yet as we like now actually to bring this back to this point about technology as we’re seeing like social media influencers and other people get a lot of attention. Like political figures and others get a lot of attention for kind of having this bravado, this kind of casual, carefree, I’m gonna do what I want because I’m a man. You know, there’s others who are pushing back on that and recognizing that no, you’re you’re still part of a society. You’re still part of a community. Your actions and words have consequences. And you can you can take ownership over of that in a way that helps you recognize as you as you just put it, your sphere of influence. So that in your day-to-day interactions. So you can put more good out there.

Ilyas

Yeah. Yeah, I think that that framing is really helpful. I I know that there. There have been like a lot of people who feel like targeted because of, like, the discourses that are going on. And I I think the way you you put that really the way it resonated with me was that like people can have this effect on the people around them that like contributes to a positive community. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Deitzel

Yeah. And and in that sense, you know, I I do recognize the discourses that are happening right now. And so that goes back to. Your question about like systems and institutions, you know that can certainly have an impact on on on how individuals perceive themselves and how they expect themselves to interact with one another. So I think in that sense, you know, we have to be aware of both what we’re told and then what we feel. So that we don’t feel so that, people aren’t kind of caught into, they’re not pushed into those roles, that they can kind of be who they want to be and and certainly in the best, most positive type of way.

Ilyas

Yeah, and. I think maybe to close, I’ll I’ll talk a little bit about like the idea of responsibility, cause I I know that like some, like some of the pieces of, like, hegemonic masculinity, are definitely problematic. But to relate to pieces of it, having grown up in a system where it’s like very prominent is like the idea of, like, taking responsibility for your actions. Cause, right, I think that’s also part of, like, the discourse around masculinity, not that it’s only about masculinity or that it’s only like male presenting people or people who define themselves as masculine, who can do that. I think that one big piece of it is being able to to take responsibility for yourself, for the like the society you live in for, like the people who you interact with and, I think being able to frame it that way, if like someone a man can take responsibility for himself, for himself and like use that for the betterment of the people around him. That’s it’s like a I think a really huge take away message that I’m I’m taking away from this just in terms of like. Yeah, the the fact that people aren’t. People aren’t like two-dimensional like you said, like some people might feel kind of targeted or whatever it may be, and but that a whole 3 dimensional person can take responsibility for like their location for themselves, for their who they are in society and go forward and try and make it better as opposed to making it worse because we do know what what things are helpful. We have definitions for sexual violence. We have definitions for technology facilitated sexual violence and it’s it’s easy to say don’t do that, but that doesn’t always work apparently. Yeah, thank you. I I really appreciate this conversation, Chris. I I’ve learned a lot talking to you.

Dr. Deitzel

Thank you. I’ve I’ve really enjoyed it too and I I really I really appreciate how you summarized it. I think that’s a very good take home message. And I fully agree with what you said. So thank you.

Ilyas

Thank you for listening to this episode of “YES, ALL MEN!” If you would like more information about today’s guest or the topics we covered, please visit the show notes section on our website – vestasit.com. For general information on sexual violence topics, take a look at our Resource Library, which explores many aspects of the gender based violence world.

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